My new bank card will let me buy stuff at a checkout, but won't let me access my account from an ATM

[Alex321]

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood @Andy in Germany, I thought he said that in York paying cash costs more than using tap on/off.
Tap on/off is not a loyalty card, well at least not here in Scotland.
You tap on/off with any card that can pay, afaik the First bus app is scanned for a ticked already purchased on the app.
I'll ask around if First bus here in Glasgow charge more if you pay cash.

Here in Wales, the advert makes it look like it is only the specific tap on tap off card that can be used.

But that is misleading, what it is actually saying is to be careful you don't have other contactless cards near the one you are using, because you could ten "tap in" more than once with different cards.

But there is no difference in fares for using it.

[EDIT]
And as far as I can see, there is also no difference in fares for using tap on tap off in York. Not sure why Andy thought it was different?

 

[classic33]

Except it doesn't because when you get off, you're digging around for your phone/card while trying to gather bags and other items to get off the bus. And then trying to wave it under the machine when you really need to concentrate on leaving. And on British buses with only one door, this also means you're doing this as other passengers are trying to get onto the bus...

It's a very complex way of making a worse system than most European cities and regions have had for nearly fifty years; we have no tapping anything: just get on, get off. Occasionally I'm asked to show my card, even more occasionally with a photo ID.

They'd to desensitise the machines you were using. The original ones could read your card in your pocket. They had a range of 3'33/8" or 1 metre. To make things easier for them. They'd a machine near the doors and the base of the stairs. Pass the second one and you were "marked" as getting off.

First never introduced their three door buses in this area, after the early trial runs. Too many problems.

 

[classic33]

Here in Wales, the advert makes it look like it is only the specific tap on tap off card that can be used.

But that is misleading, what it is actually saying is to be careful you don't have other contactless cards near the one you are using, because you could ten "tap in" more than once with different cards.

But there is no difference in fares for using it.

Put two cards near the machine and it won't read either. You're payment will be rejected.

Proof, if proof is needed, can be got by trying to pay using two cash cards together. Or even a loyalty card and a cash card.

 

[Alex321]

First York say that when using tap on tap off
"You'll only pay for what you use, with single fares calculated based on distance. A single journey will cost £1.50, £2.60, or a maximum of £3.00. "

So I think if he was charged £3.00 for the journey paying cash, it would have been the same using tap on tap off. They advertise journeys as being "from £1.50", that doesn't mean that one would have been.

 

[Alex321]

Except it doesn't because when you get off, you're digging around for your phone/card while trying to gather bags and other items to get off the bus. And then trying to wave it under the machine when you really need to concentrate on leaving. And on British buses with only one door, this also means you're doing this as other passengers are trying to get onto the bus...

It's a very complex way of making a worse system than most European cities and regions have had for nearly fifty years; we have no tapping anything: just get on, get off. Occasionally I'm asked to show my card, even more occasionally with a photo ID.

That is simply untrue. I am not aware of any UK city bus service which doesn't have what you describe. You are talking about season ticket or similar.

First York indeed do have similar. You can buy day tickets (£6), week tickets (£24) or month tickets (£85), allowing unlimited travel. You may need to download their app and purchase those tickets on the app.

This is something else entirely, although it does cap your spending at the £6 per day, £24 per week etc. It does ensure that you never pay more than the least you could have paid for the set of journeys you make (using the same card).

 

[Andy in Germany]

And as far as I can see, there is also no difference in fares for using tap on tap off in York. Not sure why Andy thought it was different?

Because on the occasions I used the Tap on/tap off system, I was charged 1,50 GBP, and when it didn't work they charged me 3.00 GBP. It happened on about every fifth bus.

To be fair, on one occasion I got on free because all I had was a 20 pound note.

Oh, and I also had to pay a 1,50 GBP flat fare for Beautiful Daughter every time.

 

[Andy in Germany]

First York indeed do have similar. You can buy day tickets (£6), week tickets (£24) or month tickets (£85), allowing unlimited travel. You may need to download their app and purchase those tickets on the app.

I'll have to check that, but why make people use the App? Why introduce more complex technology than needed?

The Tap on/tap off system also meant there was a card reader halfway down each bus, which is expensive and makes getting on and off more inconvenient for passengers. It seems silly to make such a complex system that only works on one companies buses, when over here it's been possible to use through ticketing without such complex extra machines for nearly half a century.

 

[PaulSB]

Except it doesn't because when you get off, you're digging around for your phone/card while trying to gather bags and other items to get off the bus. And then trying to wave it under the machine when you really need to concentrate on leaving. And on British buses with only one door, this also means you're doing this as other passengers are trying to get onto the bus...

It's a very complex way of making a worse system than most European cities and regions have had for nearly fifty years; we have no tapping anything: just get on, get off. Occasionally I'm asked to show my card, even more occasionally with a photo ID.

From what I've read each of the objections you've raised, the above, battery discharged, dropped phone etc are user, not system, error.

Have you ever stood behind someone boarding a bus/tram/train who isn't prepared to use the correct payment method? No end of fiddling about in pockets, purses, wallets. Or the people in shop queues suddenly taken by surprise when asked to pay? Or the people who think it's necessary to wave their card around or press it increasingly hard against the reading device? All this delay is created by the user.

The issue I do have with phone payment is the phone can be more difficult to hold and manoeuvre. Google Wallet has introduced two step verification which can be a pain.

The only time I've come across a poorly designed system is, surprisingly, at the very new Coop Live in Manchester. Entry is limited to an app. The system requires the user to place the phone under the scanner which is awkward to access. The scanners need to be upward facing. A say surprisingly because this is a brand new, state of the art venue which is outstanding in every other way.

 

[PaulSB]

They've upped the number of contactless payments permitted before the card has to go in the reader, and the PIN entered. Stands at five for most cards these days.

Still know the number for a card last used 24 years ago.

In my experience it's a lot more than five. I only use cash at the barbershop everywhere else is contactless. I can't recall the last time I had to enter a pin.........it will happen today now. 🤣

 

[Andy in Germany]

From what I've read each of the objections you've raised, the above, battery discharged, dropped phone etc are user, not system, error.

Fair enough, but with a card, I don't have to worry about making any of those errors, or my phone mysteriously refusing to work for no apparent reason, which has also happened.

Have you ever stood behind someone boarding a bus/tram/train who isn't prepared to use the correct payment method?

Not recently, although I did manage to inadvertently create a blockage and cause unnecessary delays to other passengers occasionally in York, when some readers randomly refused my card.

My problem isn't the use of phones per se, it's the unnecessary and forced addition of technology where there are simpler options.

For example, here the majority of people using public transport have some kind of season ticket which is valid on all local public transport; we don't need a debit card or a phone, although it is an option. This means getting on and off buses and trains is much simpler and faster, because no-one needs to tap in and out, and also because there are two doors on buses, so people getting on don't get mixed up with people getting off.

The system in York adds several unnecessary and complicated steps by making a new overly complicated, expensive system, which achieves less than a proven, cheaper system that makes using public transport considerably easier. It then compounded this by not accepting a valid card, so I had to pay more in cash, and block the queue.

And don't even ask about the insanity of the ticket barriers in Manchester Piccadilly...

 

[Pat "5mph"]

Here in Wales, the advert makes it look like it is only the specific tap on tap off card that can be used.

Here in Scotland there isn't a specific tap on/off card, you use any debit/credit card.

But there is no difference in fares for using it.

Indeed there isn't. I think Andy got mixed up because he got charged an all day fare, as he failed to tap out.

They'd a machine near the doors and the base of the stairs. Pass the second one and you were "marked" as getting off.

I think I vaguely remember this. Now the machine is only one, near the doors.
However, you can tap on/off at the driver's machine too.

Because on the occasions I used the Tap on/tap off system, I was charged 1,50 GBP, and when it didn't work they charged me 3.00 GBP. It happened on about every fifth bus.

You got charged an all day: here it's over £5.00!

The Tap on/tap off system also meant there was a card reader halfway down each bus, which is expensive and makes getting on and off more inconvenient for passengers.

There is only one card reader on Sottish buses, but you can also tap on/off at the driver's reader.

For example, here the majority of people using public transport have some kind of season ticket which is valid on all local public transport;

We don't have this here, but there are plans for it.

It then compounded this by not accepting a valid card

Lol, I had to rescue a foreign visitor, his Monzo card on his phone was rejected by the driver's reader.
I paid for his ticket, or we would have had a long delay, he driver was argumentative.
It was only just over a pound!

 

[classic33]

Here in Scotland there isn't a specific tap on/off card, you use any debit/credit card.

Indeed there isn't. I think Andy got mixed up because he got charged an all day fare, as he failed to tap out.

I think I vaguely remember this. Now the machine is only one, near the doors.
However, you can tap on/off at the driver's machine too.

The failure to tap out bought First a problem they didn't expect here, people being charged for the day when a single journey was made. The driver copping it for there being no signs stating that would happen.

The bus* used in the local demonstration had three doors, and two sets of stairs. First had covered every exit from the bus with a machine, plus one on each set of stairs. Simply by going upstairs you passed two machines, so had "tapped off" as you went up the stairs. The machine in the cab didn't have the range of the other machines, about the same as a card reader in a shop. So it wouldn't read your card as you passed it.

*Never seen the bus in use in this area. Can't think why.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Indeed there isn't. I think Andy got mixed up because he got charged an all day fare, as he failed to tap out.

Yes there is, and no I didn't:

If you tap in and tap out, the fare is 1.50GBP
If you tap in and forget to tap out, the fare is 3.00 GBP

If your card doesn't work, and you have to pay cash, it costs 3.00 GBP when you get on.

This happened several times because certain machines refused my card.

 

[Alex321]

Yes there is, and no I didn't:

If you tap in and tap out, the fare is 1.50GBP
If you tap in and forget to tap out, the fare is 3.00 GBP

If your card doesn't work, and you have to pay cash, it costs 3.00 GBP when you get on.

This happened several times because certain machines refused my card.

That will be because they think you are going to a different destination.

When you tap out, you get charged for the trip you have actually taken. If you pay the driver up front, and don't specify the exact stop where you will be getting off, you will be charged for the longer journey.

The tap on tap off system just makes sure you are charged the lowest available fare for the journey you have actually taken - and keeps track of multiple journeys, applying any relevant savings for those, which paying the driver can't do.

 

[Andy in Germany]

That will be because they think you are going to a different destination.

When you tap out, you get charged for the trip you have actually taken. If you pay the driver up front, and don't specify the exact stop where you will be getting off, you will be charged for the longer journey.

The tap on tap off system just makes sure you are charged the lowest available fare for the journey you have actually taken - and keeps track of multiple journeys, applying any relevant savings for those, which paying the driver can't do.

I gave my destination when I boarded.

From where we were staying to the centre of York was 1.50 GBP if I tapped on and off, and 3.00 GBP if I paid in cash.

They express it as a "discount" for people using the "tap on, tap off" system.

There are simpler and cheaper ways to deal with customers making multiple journeys, and I'm not sure the system in York allows for that anyway, because I never tried.