National Cycle Network - some paths not very good?

[rogerzilla]

Narrow-tyred hybrid bike? What about a road racing bike? They're not exactly rare among commuters. Imagine if most of the road network was only accessible to 4x4s!

 

[Aravis]

By conducting surveys which demonstrate that the majority of people want traffic free riding?

Like it or not (and like @swansonj I'm not entirely convinced, though if I take his words at face value unlike him I've noticed that the national cycle network is being proposed as a shared use supplement to, not an alternative to roads, bridle ways and other shared use ways to get around) the charity whose name my phone refuses to let me type is speaking to, and for, the general population who want to ride and walk more, not the minority of us who already cycle regularly. And in particular not to the subset of that minority who are agitated enough to post about it online.

That would be fine if Sustrans did not threaten the activities of the minority. I've long felt they're in danger of doing so, and the report published yesterday doesn't particularly reassure me.

BIB - Yesterday I did find something of the Sustrans site which usefully pointed out that the NCN links to a vast number of non-NCN roads, many of which may also be good to cycle on. Sadly today I can't find it.

 

[Alan O]

Sustrans's mapping seems to be fantasy...

And if you look at their mapping, it's clearly done with four felt-tip pens - two purple ones of different thicknesses, and two green ones.

 

[Threevok]

And if you look at their mapping, it's clearly done with four felt-tip pens - two purple ones of different thicknesses, and two green ones.

As opposed to the biro d'italia ?

Sorry, couldn't resist

 

[Cavalol]

Some of them are ok, the Millennium
Path in/around Chester, for example which is excellent.
Others are a mixed bag, the Wirral Way (admittedly not ridden it for a couple of years at least) would be murder on a road bike.

Is there a non-Sustrans map of them all where we can enter details of the sections? Might be an idea if not, people could advise as to condition, surface type and what kind of bikes are/are not suitable.

 

[Threevok]

Some of them are ok, the Millennium
Path in/around Chester, for example which is excellent.
Others are a mixed bag, the Wirral Way (admittedly not ridden it for a couple of years at least) would be murder on a road bike.

Is there a non-Sustrans map of them all where we can enter details of the sections? Might be an idea if not, people could advise as to condition, surface type and what kind of bikes are/are not suitable.

Excellent Idea.

Surely the best people to map and catalogue these for cyclists would be cyclists themselves

 

[Aravis]

And if you look at their mapping, it's clearly done with four felt-tip pens - two purple ones of different thicknesses, and two green ones.

Yes, that's my impression too. It's good to know I'm not missing something.

If I want to ride through an unfamiliar town, as with Morecambe and Lancaster last week, I tend to find off-road cycle routes using Ordnance Survey. Alternatively, find where RwGPS wants to route me. I then look for evidence of what the surface will be like, either satellite-based or from forum discussions. Better still, last week I had a look at a bit of the path near it's end on the Ingleton road, and finding it was still decent tarmac at that point, inferred that the system was likely to be tarmac throughout. But you can't always do that.

We can infer that Sustrans has collected a mountain of data and photographic evidence covering all parts of the system. Could they actually make this available, perhaps by providing detailed mapping, with information on surface type, width, segregation details, etc? If they could include pop-up photographs to illustrate problem points, it should be possible to plan with confidence.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

The best info I have seen on Sustrans routes is OSM where you can at least add the surface details, width, lighting, access etc.

 

[Richard Fairhurst]

Exactly that. If you add factual info on surface details and width to OpenStreetMap, then the countless sites that use OSM data (cycle.travel, CycleStreets, RideWithGPS, brouter, Komoot, etc. etc.) can and do take account of it. The sites for roadies will prefer tarmac at all costs, the sites for tourers will be a bit happier on gravel, and so on.

We can infer that Sustrans has collected a mountain of data and photographic evidence covering all parts of the system. Could they actually make this available, perhaps by providing detailed mapping, with information on surface type, width, segregation details, etc?

Yes, I believe (from reading a few tweets yesterday) Sustrans' intention is to provide the factual data in an open format which mapping/route-planning sites can then use. I don't know of any intention to publish photographs - I don't think they've been collected centrally, whereas the data certainly has (I have a copy sitting here as part of some of the volunteer work I've been doing for the NCN review!).

 

[Alan O]

Some of them are ok, the Millennium
Path in/around Chester, for example which is excellent.
Others are a mixed bag, the Wirral Way (admittedly not ridden it for a couple of years at least) would be murder on a road bike.

Is there a non-Sustrans map of them all where we can enter details of the sections? Might be an idea if not, people could advise as to condition, surface type and what kind of bikes are/are not suitable.

I tried to follow the canal route through central Chester a couple of weeks ago and it was closed at a point where my only realistic exit was to carry my bike up on to the city walls and walk. I'm not blaming Sustrans for that, but the closure barrier didn't look recent and a national map really needs to reflect path access to be useful.

But the Wirral Way - I've ridden it a lot this year and it's fine for road bikes, at least in dry-ish weather. And if the surface gets a bit slippy in the wet, tyres with some tread are all you really need.

But yes, some sort of feedback forum where people can report on the current state of routes seems like a great idea to me.

 

[mjr]

Exactly that. If you add factual info on surface details and width to OpenStreetMap, then the countless sites that use OSM data (cycle.travel, CycleStreets, RideWithGPS, brouter, Komoot, etc. etc.) can and do take account of it. The sites for roadies will prefer tarmac at all costs, the sites for tourers will be a bit happier on gravel, and so on.



Yes, I believe (from reading a few tweets yesterday) Sustrans' intention is to provide the factual data in an open format which mapping/route-planning sites can then use. I don't know of any intention to publish photographs - I don't think they've been collected centrally, whereas the data certainly has (I have a copy sitting here as part of some of the volunteer work I've been doing for the NCN review!).

Photos can be uploaded to www.cyclestreets.net/photomap/

What needs to happen for cycle.travel/map to offer a link to search that and not only geograph and Google?

 

[Threevok]

Photos can be uploaded to www.cyclestreets.net/photomap/

What needs to happen for cycle.travel/map to offer a link to search that and not only geograph and Google?

Great

It looks like I have a lot of pictures to take, for near me

http://www.cyclestreets.net/photomap/#12/51.7466/-3.1915

 

[swansonj]

By conducting surveys which demonstrate that the majority of people want traffic free riding?

Like it or not (and like @swansonj I'm not entirely convinced, though if I take his words at face value unlike him I've noticed that the national cycle network is being proposed as a shared use supplement to, not an alternative to roads, bridle ways and other shared use ways to get around) the charity whose name my phone refuses to let me type is speaking to, and for, the general population who want to ride and walk more, not the minority of us who already cycle regularly. And in particular not to the subset of that minority who are agitated enough to post about it online.

For the record:

If you “take [my] words at face value”, I said that Sustrans are plugging the NCN as something “different” from roads and bridleways i.e. as a different network to the road network. I don’t see how that can possibly be disputed as a statement of fact.

As for what we each have or have not noticed about Sustran’s intent, I think the difference on this occasion may not be in the words we have read as in the degree to which we have believed them.

And I didn’t, and don’t, dispute the value of Sustrans in facilitating infrastructure that gets more people cycling. Like I said, short term gain, possible long term loss.

 

[mjr]

If you “take [my] words at face value”, I said that Sustrans are plugging the NCN as something “different” from roads and bridleways i.e. as a different network to the road network. I don’t see how that can possibly be disputed as a statement of fact. .

If so, then that's wrong. All of the cycleable NCN are roads in law. Even the bridleways are legally roads IIRC - just not carriageways. The only bits that aren't are some of the farking shoot bits which you aren't allowed to cycle on - and even some of those are roads restricted to walkers only.

 

[Cavalol]

I tried to follow the canal route through central Chester a couple of weeks ago and it was closed at a point where my only realistic exit was to carry my bike up on to the city walls and walk. I'm not blaming Sustrans for that, but the closure barrier didn't look recent and a national map really needs to reflect path access to be useful.

But the Wirral Way - I've ridden it a lot this year and it's fine for road bikes, at least in dry-ish weather. And if the surface gets a bit slippy in the wet, tyres with some tread are all you really need.

But yes, some sort of feedback forum where people can report on the current state of routes seems like a great idea to me.

That sounds like the bit on my commute. If you come up the canal lock 'steps' (you can ride up there) then if you look at sort of 1.00 you'll see a cobbled ramp. Take that, then turn left at the top. Left on Northgate Street (two way to cyclists, one way to vehicles) go through the lights, then take the second right, past Tesco express. Follow that road round the corner, take the left and go past the new bus station on your left. At the bottom of that road (George Street) turn right, go over Cow Lane Bridge and you can re-join the canal there. Head away from the bridge (without going under it) and you'll go towards Boughton, Vicars Cross and the A41. The canal path is paved to Waverton, after that it's not much different to riding across a field until you get to Hurleston junction, with just the odd paved bit along the way. There's a cracking pub at the side of the Shropshire Union near Beeston called The Shady Oak if you need a 'reason' for a pint or several!
Apologies if you already knew all this by the way.