Pet's soul....

[Andy in Sig]

I don't believe you. I could do the above very easily but from my experience the people who claim they would change their minds if shown proof seldom mean it. Their minds are fixed and all evidence is interpreted through the lens of what they already wish to believe. (Matt.16: 1-4)

Incidentally, I think this thread should be moved to P&L.

It seems to me that you are getting in your get out clauses before you even start. It would be folly to ignore a proof and not to change an opinion based on the denial of what that proof shows. Now if you can prove the existence of a god "very easily", then the floor is yours ...

 

[Dayvo]

Now if you can prove the existence of a god "very easily", then the floor is yours ...

I think it's those 'voices' he hears in his head!

 

[ufkacbln]

Just to be controversial......


I don't really care about YOUR religion and / or beliefs, unless they infringe upon my right to believe as I wish.



Religion is only dangerous or objectionable when mixed with the words "Fanatic" or "Fundementalist" - then I may have a problem.
Do not dictate to me, try and force me or frighten me into your beliefs and we will get along fine.

 

[Mr Pig]

It IS stupid to believe in ghosts. They do not exist and that's a fact.

I'm sure that many ghost sightings etc are due to mind tricks, optical illusions etc but not all. There is simply too much evidence that there are things out there beyond the physical realm to ignore. Unless you want to stick your head in the sand.

Now if you can prove the existence of a god "very easily", then the floor is yours ...

Firstly, that's not what you asked. You said:

If a church could prove that its whole construction is not of human making, then I might sit up and listen.

However that's fine and I'm happy to talk to you. Such debates on here always end up fairly rat-infested muck-throwing contests though so if you want to talk to me I'd rather do it in person. If you send me a PM I'll give you my phone number and you're very welcome to call me any time.

 

[Maz]

Do fleas have souls? Do they come back and haunt us?

No, they come back and bite us.

 

[buggi]

science may never have proved the existence of God, but then it has never disproved it either.

Religion is wrong yes, it causes a lot of conflict. so what you should be looking at is a personal relationship with God, which is where my mum is coming from. i can't cuss her, she's a good person, she goes to church, and she tells me it doesn't matter what church or denomination you belong to, as long as you accept Christ as your saviour and have a personal relationship with him.

but my whole point about my post was, if you believe souls go to heaven then you must believe in the whole heaven and hell thing, and i don't know of any denomination of the church that says it is right to try to contact the other side, or that doesn't believe there is a constant battle between good and evil and all the other stuff i said in my other post about lying spirits etc.

 

[Riding in Circles]

But you haven't really, have you? It's a normal psychological response like when we "see" recently deceased people walking down the street and convince ourselves that a certain walk, mannerism or style favours the friend or relative who's died. Your rational is entirely correct. It IS stupid to believe in ghosts. They do not exist and that's a fact. I am also of the firm and fixed opinion that animals do not and cannot have "souls" and I believe it is mad to think they do.

You make a number of definitive claims in there that you cannot back up in any way.

 

[Riding in Circles]

Mmm. Tricky one. I have met good Christians who are part of the Church Of England or the RC Church. What I would say is that being part of these churches, particularly the RC church, doesn't make it easy! Much of their teaching is indeed counter to scripture which makes it much harder for people to find the truth. But they can still manage it, if they're really looking. Although usually when they do see the light they want to find another church! ;0)

But as pets don't go to church at all I don't see what it has to do with the price of cheese ;0)

I know a number of good people who are pagans, wicca, muslims, jews, sikh, hindu and I even know a fellow who is a diabolist who is a nice chap, I have RC and CofE friends, baptists, my family consists of christians, zoroastarians, alawi, druse, sabians and yesidi, through them all some a re nice people, some are not, but they are all people, goodness does not come as part of their religion but as part of their humanity. As for animals having souls, Matthew 10:29 suggests that sparrows are even valued by God and their death is only allowed by the grace of God, there are many many references to animals in the bible, Balaam and the talking donkey comes to mind, the donkey showed an insight and wisdom that was spiritual, but was beyond Balaam, such an animal must have a soul if you believe the bible.

 

[Riding in Circles]

science may never have proved the existence of God, but then it has never disproved it either.

Religion is wrong yes, it causes a lot of conflict. so what you should be looking at is a personal relationship with God, which is where my mum is coming from. i can't cuss her, she's a good person, she goes to church, and she tells me it doesn't matter what church or denomination you belong to, as long as you accept Christ as your saviour and have a personal relationship with him.

but my whole point about my post was, if you believe souls go to heaven then you must believe in the whole heaven and hell thing, and i don't know of any denomination of the church that says it is right to try to contact the other side, or that doesn't believe there is a constant battle between good and evil and all the other stuff i said in my other post about lying spirits etc.

How do you explain the appearance of Elijah and Moses during the transfiguration of the christ if the spirits of the dead are really demons come to distract you from God?

 

[tdr1nka]

How do you explain the appearance of Elijah and Moses during the transfiguration of the christ if the spirits of the dead are really demons come to distract you from God?

That's easy, it's like the bit at the end of Return Of The Jedi when Luke is visited by the ghosts of his Father, Master Yoda & Obi Wan Kenobi.

 

[Riding in Circles]

That's easy, it's like the bit at the end of Return Of The Jedi when Luke is visited by the ghosts of his Father, Master Yoda & Obi Wan Kenobi.

His father looks a lot younger in the remastered version? It could be a demon ewok thing.

 

[tdr1nka]

His father looks a lot younger in the remastered version? It could be a demon ewok thing.

Exactly my point! The re-mastered editions are the work of evil in my book!

Happy Easter btw!

 

[Maz]

If a church could definitively prove to me that one tiny part of its whole construction is not of human making, then I might sit up and listen. Until that day I'll happily go my own way.

"I find your lack of faith disturbing..."

 

[Mr Pig]

Balaam and the talking donkey comes to mind, the donkey showed an insight and wisdom that was spiritual, but was beyond Balaam, such an animal must have a soul if you believe the bible

I don't see how you conclude that the donkey must have a soul because it was able to detect the presence of an angel. Balaam had a soul and he could not. Also, God made this donkey talk! So hardly a typical situation here.

My point was not that animals have no spiritual life or sensitivity, it was that I do not believe they have an eternal soul like man has.

The Bible is pretty clear that man is distinct in being created in God's image. Man is not like the animals, he is not just another animal and animals are not party to the redemption provided for fallen man. Whether animals have spirits is not the issue. Fallen angels are spiritual creatures but they too are not included in the redemptive plan provided for man. They cannot be redeemed. I'm not saying that the same rules apply to animals, just that you cannot extrapolate that animals share the same spiritual characteristics as man just because they exhibit similar behavior at times. Nothing in scripture suggests that that is true. Absolutely nothing. There are a lot of references to animals in scripture. Many about eating and sacrificing them!

How do you explain the appearance of Elijah and Moses during the transfiguration of the Christ if the spirits of the dead are really demons

Firstly, many unique and miraculous things happened to and around Christ to contribute to the validation of who he is. If you were to take all of these instances as indicators of normal practice then Christians should be emptying the hospitals with instant healing!

Also, there is no suggestion that Elijah and Moses were spirits. It says that the men were there, talking to Jesus. When you die, if you are redeemed, you will not be a ghost.

But most importantly of all, the Bible expressly forbids talking to the dead in the most severe terms (Deut. 18:10-12, Lev. 20:6 and 27). The King James words it rather well when it describes them as 'familiar spirits', which is exactly what most ghosts appear to be. You ask about believing the bible? Well it says these things are bad news and we are not to have anything to do with them. That settles it as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Mr Pig]

Oh, and the Star Wars stuff is rather funny :0)