Police Officer with a chip?

[Sara_H]

Next time I can't be bothered to wait at a traffic light I'm gonna put the car into neutral and push it across. My feet on the floor make me a pedestrian right? Should save a few minutes off the commute!

Yeah, I think we've done that one to death.

 

[Pale Rider]

Yeah, I think we've done that one to death.

After 15 pages, I think we've done the whole thing to death.

But hey, I'm not knocking it, I've played my part.

 

[benb]

Never ever going to be prosecuted for anything such as 'J walking'

Mainly because there is no such offence in the UK, and long may that continue.

If the cyclist knew the light phases, knew that he was crossing with a pedestrian phase, then I can't see how his actions were in any way risky to either himself or anyone.

Personally, I am already of the view that the law should be changed to make red lights the equivalent of give way junctions. Paris recently allowed right turn (equivalent of left for us) on red lights for cyclists, and it seems to have worked fine, so we could start with that.

The cyclist broke no laws, and as far as I can tell, posed no risk to anyone.
In other situations at other junctions he would obviously have been an idiot to have tried this.

In future though, he should remount as soon as he is clear of the stop line, as it is crossing the line that is the offence, not crossing the junction.

Finally, I utterly reject the notion of collective responsibility. It's pernicious, and anyone who has a bad attitude to a road user based on something that they saw another completely different person do earlier, should hand their licence back immediately. I see terrible driving every day, but somehow I manage not to hate all drivers for it. People that say "I hate cyclists because some of them jump reds" is a moron.

 

[Brandane]

Mainly because there is no such offence in the UK, and long may that continue.

If the cyclist knew the light phases, knew that he was crossing with a pedestrian phase, then I can't see how his actions were in any way risky to either himself or anyone.

Personally, I am already of the view that the law should be changed to make red lights the equivalent of give way junctions. Paris recently allowed right turn (equivalent of left for us) on red lights for cyclists, and it seems to have worked fine, so we could start with that.

The cyclist broke no laws, and as far as I can tell, posed no risk to anyone.
In other situations at other junctions he would obviously have been an idiot to have tried this.

In future though, he should remount as soon as he is clear of the stop line, as it is crossing the line that is the offence, not crossing the junction.

Finally, I utterly reject the notion of collective responsibility. It's pernicious, and anyone who has a bad attitude to a road user based on something that they saw another completely different person do earlier, should hand their licence back immediately. I see terrible driving every day, but somehow I manage not to hate all drivers for it. People that say "I hate cyclists because some of them jump reds" is a moron.

How dare you bring common sense to the table!

 

[Leodis]

This was on Road CC the other week, it went on forever and the rider get aggressive when people questioned his twatish behaviour

 

[Smurfy]

I've been doing something similar on my commute. If the lights are red I get off and walk on the pavement, as it is a steep hill, and the next set of lights are only a few yards away and don't remain green for long. It works well for me. I don't have to race for the second set of lights, while breathing in all the emissions of the cars making a hill start from the first set of traffic lights.

 

[Leodis]

Why don't you just wait at the lights? Poor cycling imho

 

[w00hoo_kent]

I have one junction on the A20 part of my commute that if I arrive as it goes red I'll get off, walk the bike across, and carry on going. It's worth around 500 metres of road before all the various junctions have had their turn and it's 500m I don't have to share with the majority of cars while doing the incline that follows it. If I arrive and I'm too late in the process, I'll sit and wait with the traffic.

The time gain is good for me and it's a bonus not having to be in the melee away from the lights where close passes (two lane carriageway) are fairly common.

 

[summerdays]

Hmm this morning I arrived at a right turn where you can only turn unless lucky after the traffic coming towards you is stopped by a red light so only 2 max 3 cars manage the turn. I was at least 5 cars back so decided that rather than wait the complete light sequence again (1 to 2 minutes) I just stopped by the pavement, crossed the road and the side road, got back on and was 200 meters in front of the first car. It was worth it.

 

[steveindenmark]

Everyone has different opinions on this and I'm not going to argue the toss but here's mine.

As an ex copper I can never recall stopping a bike as this officer did. I would have got ahead of him and stopped him in a safe place after getting out of the car. You are then a person addressing a person. Trying to advise someone about how to use the road is much easier if you don't act like a dick and block the road yourself.

The cyclist in my view would have been a pedestrian had he been walking the bike on the pavement or crossing. As he is he is in the road with all the traffic. It is obvious he could not be bothered to wait for the lights. If we were in the USA he would get a ticket for jaywalking. Unfortunately, you can't get a ticket for being a bit of a dick in the UK, otherwise he would.

 

[Greenbank]

Short version: What was done in the video is illegal. Crank vs Brooks doesn't make the bicycle disappear.

Long version:

So much misunderstanding about Crank vs Brooks.

Crank vs Brooks was an appeal case concerning a motorist who knocked someone down on a zebra crossing and the defence team argued that because the person was pushing a bicycle they were not a 'foot passenger' and therefore there was no requirement for the motorist to accord precedence to them at the crossing. Rather shockingly, this argument was successful in the original case and the case against the motorist was thrown out with no case to answer. It was the appeal (which is the Crank vs Brooks case) that overturned this.

The point of all of this is that the wording of the Zebra Pedestrian Crossing Regulations refers simply to "foot passenger" and there was no reason why this should not have covered someone who just happened to be wheeling a bicycle by their side.

Quoth the judge: "But the fact that she had the bicycle in her hand and was walking does not create any difference from a case where she is walking without a bicycle in her hand. I regard it as unarguable the finding that she was not a foot passenger."

This is where most people misunderstand CvB. The ruling doesn't make the bicycle disappear if it being wheeled/pushed, it just means that someone can be classed as "foot passenger" whilst wheeling a bicycle along side them. The bicycle is still there being wheeled. The Zebra Pedestrian Crossing Regulations doesn't make any distinctions between a "foot passenger" and a "foot passenger propelling a vehicle" so the wheeling of the bicycle becomes immaterial in this matter, what matters is whether the person was considered a "foot passenger" or a "cyclist".

However, the wording in the RTA 1998 specifically points to "a person driving or propelling a vehicle". With Crank vs Brooks in mind the person pushing a bike over a stop line at a red light can be similarly classed as a "foot passenger" but the vehicle (bicycle) is still there, and if the vehicle is propelled (pushed) over the stop line at a red light then an offence has been committed.

In the case of the RTA 1998 it DOES make a difference whether someone is crossing the stop line at a red light with a bicycle in their hand or not.

Can a pedestrian walk across a stop line at a red light? Yes, since they're not propelling a vehicle across it.
Can you push a car or motorbike across a stop line at a red light? No, a vehicle is being propelled.
Can you push a bicycle across a stop line at a red light? No, a vehicle is being propelled.
Can you carry a bike across a stop line at a red light? Don't know, that'd probably end up in front of a judge to make that decision on whether "propelling a vehicle" stretches to carrying it.
Can you carry a folded Brompton in a bag across a stop line at a red light? Don't know, that'd probably end up in front of a judge to make that decision, etc.
Can you push a trundle wheel across a stop line at a red light? Yes, since a trundle wheel isn't a vehicle.
Can you push a pram across a strop line at a red light? Don't know, a pram is classed as both a carriage designed for use on pavements but can also be classed as a vehicle under some circumstances.

It's not as simple as you're either a "cyclist" or a "pedestrian".

 

[benb]

You'd need case law to rule whether a bicycle being pushed by someone walking is being propelled in the definition of the RTA.

That hasn't happened, so you can't definitively say that the person was propelling a bicycle.
Likewise you can't definitively say that they weren't propelling a vehicle. Until it's tested in crown court (mags won't do) we can't say.

If you pick the bicycle up until you're clear of the stop line, that should do the trick, as by no stretch of the imagination are you propelling anything.

 

[Greenbank]

You'd need case law to rule whether a bicycle being pushed by someone walking is being propelled in the definition of the RTA.

Martin Porter QC (The Cycling Silk) seems quite happy that someone pushing a bicycle would be classed as propelling it: https://twitter.com/MartinPorter6/status/606028605336854528 which is why he notes that he lifts his over the line.

My main point was that Crank vs Brooks is irrelevant in this matter but some people seem to quote it as if it is some piece of magic that will makes bicycles disappear.

 

[doog]

I've been doing something similar on my commute. If the lights are red I get off and walk on the pavement, as it is a steep hill, and the next set of lights are only a few yards away and don't remain green for long. It works well for me. I don't have to race for the second set of lights, while breathing in all the emissions of the cars making a hill start from the first set of traffic lights.

It isnt similar as he didnt mount the pavement,..whereas you do.

 

[Bianchi boy]

Waffle on all you like, But this police officer had a chip on his shoulder, thats what the thread is about, He was totally unprofessional in his conduct, and it shows the "profession's" standards are getting worse