Red Arrows to Fly Foreign Built / Designed Aircraft?

[figbat]

Back in the 1960s the RAF Black Arrows was the display team of the time, living on RAF camps they were a regular visitor.

Before the Red Arrows there were a number of squadron-based display team: the Firebirds (Lightnings), Red Pelican (Jet Provosts), the Yellowjacks (Gnats) etc.

The Red Arrows brought it all into one, service-wide, official team. By the way, you can thank the French for the name - the Black Arrows name came from the French dubbing them «Les Flèches Noires» - the later Red Arrows were named for their colour and kept the “arrows” moniker.

 

[Sharky]

As this thread is becoming a general discussion on planes etc, I can add ....

Today in Rochester Cathedral, they have a plane!

Built by the "Short Brothers", based in Rochester.
Quite a large display of plane related items.

 

[DaveReading]

In some cases (B-52) is it a question of them being Triggers Broom? How much of the aircraft flying today is the original 1950s design?

The "Trigger's Broom" description could equally be applied to the RAF's remaining Hawks - most, if not all, comprise replacement wings attached to a replacement fuselage ...

 

[Time Waster]

The "Trigger's Broom" description could equally be applied to the RAF's remaining Hawks - most, if not all, comprise replacement wings attached to a replacement fuselage ...

That shows how practical the design was surely??

 

[wiggydiggy]

The "Trigger's Broom" description could equally be applied to the RAF's remaining Hawks - most, if not all, comprise replacement wings attached to a replacement fuselage ...

Yes it could, I just meant though that the B52 has had so many parts upgraded not just replaced from another airframe it's now a completely different aircraft.

 

[figbat]

Yes it could, I just meant though that the B52 has had so many parts upgraded not just replaced from another airframe it's now a completely different aircraft.

Aaah, the ship of Theseus paradox.

 

[wiggydiggy]

Aaah, the ship of Theseus paradox.

You're going to make me watch it now lol


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAh8HryVaeY

 

[Time Waster]

Aaah, the ship of Theseus paradox.

Aah but that does not apply if the pieces are not replaced but redesigned and changed? Perhaps the B52s were changed into B53s or B54s with the changes. We have had various harrier and tornado models over the years. With some variants of Tornadoes we had effectively created different planes with different uses and purpose. AIUI we took one tornado model and refitted it to do the other job such that it was not good for the original job. That I think is kind of the change with the B52s. They were designed for one use case and then modified with better abilities to do something more or different.

Theseus thought experiment is only about identity for like for like replacements. B52s now are not the same at all to the original and it would have been a conscious change not a replacement of parts. Perhaps that is why renaming new versions is better than just keeping the name.

 

[DaveReading]

With some variants of Tornadoes we had effectively created different planes with different uses and purpose. AIUI we took one tornado model and refitted it to do the other job such that it was not good for the original job.

And of course the Tornado, before being christened as such, was known as the MRCA (Multi-Role Combat Aircraft).

 

[Time Waster]

And of course the Tornado, before being christened as such, was known as the MRCA (Multi-Role Combat Aircraft).

Early Typhoons were Eurofighter, EFA, EOP and a few other things (I was 16 and working at BAE at the time the prototypes and EFA were being built. Not on them because they were special constructions built elsewhere. I did live on top of the hill over the aerodrome and thee bus went along the road on top of a ridge overlooking the Ribble valley. So we could ride the bus on some days and get an airshow of what the prototypes could do. They used to do test runs where they dropped down below the ridgeline so low we could not see them then suddenly there was this jet going straight up like a rocket. They were seriously manoevreable and those were the prototypes I think with a different wing design. I think the actual EFA (Eurofighter / Typhoon first build I think) was also flown there and also impreessive.

We used to read about the S curve against what was out there at the time. One end certain survival in a dog fight, the other end certain destruction. That was against the most up to date opponent, namely Russian plane. It showed where the EFA was but also the other fighters in those days. EFA was almost at the survive end of the S curve only beaten by the stealth fighter because the stealth capabilities of it meant they were less likely to be detected and something to do with missile lock too. I think the EFA was actually better when in a dogfight though. All the others including the French offshoot of the EFA IIIRC were some way back. Now the stealth is in with the better manoevreeabilty too with the latest IIIRC 5Th generation fighters.

It really is interesting stuff these planes.

 

[pjd57]

Bin it.
Ridiculously expensive bit of flag shagging

 

[mustang1]

The thing about the Red Arrows is that they go around the world doing displays. This is advertising for British industry and shows what we are capable of making plus demonstrating our planes for possible customers. 1,000 Hawks have been sold around the world to foreign customers. If we were to use foreign made aircraft it would be advertising for foreign competition and a huge negative for British industry giving the impression that we can't make anything anymore. It would also be a huge kick in the teeth for British workers.

If it's showing off what we can do, then why don't the road builders watch the red arrow display, coz our roads are garbage.

Ps: for low cost, both to purchase and to maintain, how about Cessna 172s?

 

[classic33]

What about AERO L-159 Albatros 2's, already being flown by the UK military.

 

[Time Waster]

How about just designing a high end fighter and tout it around the world at defence trade air shows?? Stuff the coloured smoke and 20 seconds display. I have seen them and TBH I was bored. I have however seen displays of various types of planes in a fly past. Just a simple flight past was more entertaining. heck I was at a fair in Windermere when a Chinook landed, took off, did a loop around the lake and landed again. Did it a few times through the day and in between it sat there and you could practically walk right up to it. Another time I was driving the back way from Kendal and a huge jet flew past from Windermere Show. Still go no idea what is was as to me it looked closer to the spy plane the americans used in the height of the cold war. Can't have been because of how they were designed for the unique use case they had.

So basically once you have seen one hawk jet flying they are pretty much boring IMHO. So scrap them and put the money to something faster and of more use. Preferably designed and made by BAE Systems!!

 

[Illaveago]

As this thread is becoming a general discussion on planes etc, I can add ....

Today in Rochester Cathedral, they have a plane!

View attachment 782475

Built by the "Short Brothers", based in Rochester.
Quite a large display of plane related items.

How about just designing a high end fighter and tout it around the world at defence trade air shows?? Stuff the coloured smoke and 20 seconds display. I have seen them and TBH I was bored. I have however seen displays of various types of planes in a fly past. Just a simple flight past was more entertaining. heck I was at a fair in Windermere when a Chinook landed, took off, did a loop around the lake and landed again. Did it a few times through the day and in between it sat there and you could practically walk right up to it. Another time I was driving the back way from Kendal and a huge jet flew past from Windermere Show. Still go no idea what is was as to me it looked closer to the spy plane the americans used in the height of the cold war. Can't have been because of how they were designed for the unique use case they had.

So basically once you have seen one hawk jet flying they are pretty much boring IMHO. So scrap them and put the money to something faster and of more use. Preferably designed and made by BAE Systems!!

The Hawk was a 2 seat fast jet trainer the next step up in the training scheme from the Tucano. There was also a single seat version sold as a cheaper ground attack fighter jet. The Jaguar was the next step up from the Hawk which turned out to be a successful aircraft, it wasn't supersonic like the Tornado or Typhoon.
The Hawk was sold to quite a few foreign countries and was a good export winner. I can remember one foreign air force had their own display team using them so that was further advertisement for our aircraft manufacturing.
Yes I found this year's display was a bit boring. I still think the old bomb burst that they used to finish with was more exciting.