Riding in primary or not?

[jimboalee]

Let's get this right???

'Primary' is the position on the road where the cyclist is in control of the lane and following vehicles cannot ( or would be foolish to ) pass.

'Secondary' is the position on the road where the cyclist is making a minimal obstruction to traffic.


These, to me are the same as Dominant and Nearside, which were terms in use many years before Franklin published his novel.


I have scanned CycleCraft. It contains much of what I learned on a Moped training course in the mid seventies.

I ride my pedal cycle in the same manner as I would ride a restricted Moped. A Jawa Babetta I bought in a fit of madness in 1979.
It was £79.99 and did 25 mph maximum.

 

[Origamist]

Do you know John personally? I've always thought it would be interesting to get his insights into some of my and others videos.

I have heard him speak and have contacted him in the past, but he's not made it onto my Christmas card list just yet...

I imagine much of his time is taken up with his work as an expert witness at trials etc.

 

[magnatom]

I have heard him speak and have contacted him in the past, but he's not made it onto Christmas card list just yet...

I imagine much of his time is taken up with his work as an expert witness at trials etc.

Aye, that's why I have never bothered to ask. It certainly would be interesting to find out his take on it though.

 

[BentMikey]

An example of why pragmatism wins out over line drawings. One morning about a year ago I was approaching a junction onto the ring road of a local town taking what's called primary, because it was the position with most benefit to me as a cyclist.
However the engine note of a following car and the rapid changes through the gear box gave me, for purely instinctive reasons, the idea to pull in well to the left. The car came past at perhaps, 60mph (we were in 30) with no care for my positioning and proceeded to take the roundabout in the wrong direction, mostly on two wheels. A police siren followed 30 seconds later.

I have no proof that I'd have ended up as collateral damage in a car chase if I'd held my ground but I believe it to be so, because there was no safe zone for the driver and I was the softest target. This is an obvious example on a scale of brinkmanship but there are common ones where instinct leads a cyclist to places no amount of Cyclecraft can legislate for. It would be better if except and unless were spelt out in bigger letters to stop newbies taking the thing down as writ, then broadcasting it to the rest of us.

This is very good Cyclecraft, exactly as advised in the book. Your misunderstanding again, I'm afraid.

 

[gaz]

It would be better if except and unless were spelt out in bigger letters to stop newbies taking the thing down as writ, then broadcasting it to the rest of us.

I don't think anyone 'broadcasting' here is a newbie

 

[jimboalee]

An example of why pragmatism wins out over line drawings. One morning about a year ago I was approaching a junction onto the ring road of a local town taking what's called primary, because it was the position with most benefit to me as a cyclist.
However the engine note of a following car and the rapid changes through the gear box gave me, for purely instinctive reasons, the idea to pull in well to the left. The car came past at perhaps, 60mph (we were in 30) with no care for my positioning and proceeded to take the roundabout in the wrong direction, mostly on two wheels. A police siren followed 30 seconds later.

I have no proof that I'd have ended up as collateral damage in a car chase if I'd held my ground but I believe it to be so, because there was no safe zone for the driver and I was the softest target. This is an obvious example on a scale of brinkmanship but there are common ones where instinct leads a cyclist to places no amount of Cyclecraft can legislate for. It would be better if except and unless were spelt out in bigger letters to stop newbies taking the thing down as writ, then broadcasting it to the rest of us.

This happened to me once. The high pitch of a revving engine and wailing of police sirens to my rear.
I didn't need to recall advice in a book, I got off the road bloody pronto.

In a situation like this, and if I'd thought quicker, I could have picked up the pot of flowers in the adjacent garden and tossed it through the car's ( not the police car, stupid ) windscreen.

"Cyclist assists Police in apprehending Bank Robbers. Bank gives £10,000 reward".....

 

[Origamist]

Let's get this right???

'Primary' is the position on the road where the cyclist is in control of the lane and following vehicles cannot ( or would be foolish to ) pass.

'Secondary' is the position on the road where the cyclist is making a minimal obstruction to traffic.

These, to me are the same as Dominant and Nearside, which were terms in use many years before Franklin published his novel.

Yes, it's taken a while, but you're picking things up as we go along.

This happened to me once. The high pitch of a revving engine and wailing of police sirens to my rear.
I didn't need to recall advice in a book, I got off the road bloody pronto.

Let me spin your crude "book vs experience" dichotomy a different way: you don't have to read (and/or admire the pics) in the Karma Sutra in order to have sex, but you might learn some new positions, tips and tricks if you do...

 

[blockend]

This is very good Cyclecraft, exactly as advised in the book. Your misunderstanding again, I'm afraid.

On the contrary, "I read Cyclecraft donkey's years ago not long after it came out...and saw nothing surprising in the advice...What I failed to notice was the new gift of the middle of the road people began talking about."

It's splendid that JF is taken seriously enough to be involved as an expert witness at inquests and the like. It would give my nearest and dearest comfort to know I had the right to be in the middle of the road. However I have no inclination to exercise that right as fulsomely as message board contributors suggest and am happy riding 'secondary' as a default and 'primary' when under threat.

This is old news no doubt but one cyclist's notion of threat is different from another's. A manoeuvre that takes two seconds to undertake on the open road, for better or worse, might be analysed through pages of counter argument on here and still no clear decision on its merits reached. For that reason I take instinct, particularly survival, seriously enough to let it override theory on a regular basis.

 

[BentMikey]

My point was more that you derided Cyclecraft, and tried to show how your instinct was "better", when it was just Cyclecraft exactly as per expert theory and practice.

 

[blockend]

My point was more that you derided Cyclecraft, and tried to show how your instinct was "better", when it was just Cyclecraft exactly as per expert theory and practice.

I missed the chapter on fleeing bank robbers but the point I was attempting to make was my initial reading of Cyclecraft didn't reveal any of the later interpretations that aggregated around it, especially the one that cyclists belong in the middle of the lane unless they feel 'safe', versions of which regularly recur on message boards.

The terms primary and secondary are misleading if that simplistic interpretation was the one Franklin intended, which I suspect wasn't the case. As someone suggested earlier, the terminology has gained totemic status with riders using the inference to support their chosen riding style.

It's clearly to the advantage of all cyclists that we have legal support in taking a prominent position to control aspects of traffic flow where necessary, but adds to the demonisation of riders when that control takes on a polemical spin. Personally I feel cyclists should be able to ride where the hell they like in a lane so long as they're aware of the full consequences of that decision. An unfocussed sense of danger (surely the only intelligent response to cycling on the highway) is not in itself a justification to hog the road, IMO, whereas thoughtless driving certainly is.
In those nuances the argument lies.

 

[jimboalee]

http://www.amazon.com/Sloanes-Complete-Book-Bicycling-Anniversary/dp/0671870750#noop

Here’s the book on my shelf.

Let me quote…

“To go straight ahead to cross the intersection when the light turns green, move to the center of the traffic lane. That way you will be visible to drivers from all directions. You can accelerate across the intersection about as fast as a car. Once across, move back to the right ( left in the UK, Japan, Australia, Ireland and the Isle of Man ) side of the road where it is safest.”

“To turn left ( right in the UK, Japan, Australia, Ireland and the Isle of Man ) at a two lane intersection, stay in the center of the vehicle lane and make your turn when you get the green, as if you were a car. Get back to the right ( Left in the UK, Japan, Australia, Ireland and the Isle of Man ) side of the road as soon as possible.”


Notice..; No naming parts of the carriageway, and I understood Eugene's meanings immediately.

Mine's the 1995 25th Anniversary edition.

Eugene also says;
"On any street, road, trail or lane, keep in mind Sloane's first rule of bicycle safety: Always be alert, never assume anything, and above all give the right of way to anyone who asks for it. Never argue, do not give the finger to anyone, for you know not what fury you might unleash. Do not even fight for the right of way with a pedstrian. let 'em go their way, you go yours when its safe."

 

[blockend]

"feeling safe" isn't helpful because it draws away from the method of riding, and is too subjective to be any use.

Agreed. As with all instruction manuals that refer to complex problems, they necessarily assume a certain level of familiarity with the issues - a subject discussed exhaustively in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance - otherwise terms like 'your own safety' are meaningless.

 

[gaz]

Following on from paul's good example of holding a strong position.
A few things i have to say about me holding primary for quite some time.

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRONsqlL1q8

 

[blockend]

Positioning comments?

V. nice. Perhaps a few more rear obs but you won't be failing the blockend test.

 

[blockend]

Following on from paul's good example of holding a strong position.
A few things i have to say about me holding primary for quite some time.

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRONsqlL1q8

Filtering too fast in the final quarter. You could have been doored by any of the cars and the ped looked like he was about to step into the road. Admittedly wide angle cams give a poor perception of true speed.