Rolling resistance - Schwalbe Marathon Plus

[Deleted member 35268]

They are fine for summer use in my opinion, but not great for puncture resistance. I run Conti 4 seasons they are have been great on the CX winter bike. I run Mich Pro Endurance 4 on the road bike, those are good as well ! Fast rolling and robust.

Oh well.

 

[nickyboy]

There was no mention of irregular surfaces crossed at speeds where bounce is introduced. Hence, leave it out. The statement was simple: the tyres were more slippery because they were pumped too hard.

You can't leave it out. Perception may be they are more "squirmy", less "grippy". Reality is that it's down to more bounce caused by higher levels of inflation

 

[Ajax Bay]

I'm running some 700 / 25c Schwalbe Marathon Plus . . .
So would the heavier setup and the tred account for about a -2 to -3 mile per hour defecit on my rides?
I usually amble around at 16.7 - 17.5 mph (with lumpy bits)

To answer the OP, I would be surprised if the high rolling resistance and weight of the M+s would make such a difference, though the OP doesn't say what tyres they replaced. The weight of the tyres (adding an extra kg to the rider+bike weight would have a minimal difference (as discussed above). The rolling resistance of an M+ is about 25w, compared to 17w (say for a Conti GP4Seasons). So 16w more (power) expensive (2 tyres).
This bikecalculator site allows calculations of how much power is needed to go at what speed (with lots of variables to be set/altered).
80kg rider/12kg bike ridden at 200w up a 1% gradient (simulates the OP's "with lumpy bits") goes at 16.5mph. If 16 of those wattts are absorbed by increased rolling resistance, the speed goes down to 15.8mph - a reduction of 0.7mph - rather less than 2-3mph (OP).
So my answer is "no". HTH
I used a 28-622 M+ for the second half of an end-to-end (after tyre failure of the useless Giant tyre I had on) and frankly noticed no difference. But the tyre weighed 750g odd, three times the weight of a normal 28-622 road tyre, and it was a b*******d to get on. Never punctured though (Lancaster to JoG/Kirkwall).

 

[Ajax Bay]

The OP asked about Marathon plus tyres. My Marathon plus tyres have a direction on them (in black on the tyre itself, so hardly for aesthetics) and I have learned from bitter experience that it does make a difference if you fit them backwards.
(It also says it on the pages you linked to?)

From the OP we are considering tyres being used on road (deduced from normal and reduced speeds). The Schwalbe quote I offered is directly relevant (direction arrow is for aesthetics). Please quote the passage you suggest "says it [makes a difference if you fit them backwards] on the pages you linked to".

We have in the past had long, fruitful and profoundly interesting* threads on the directionality of tyres.

In case chatters can't find the interesting (TM) threads to which @Dogtrousers refers, here's the link (19 pages - so much fun - the highlight of 2017 (not including the Bryan Chapman Memorial ride, Mille Pennines of LEL)):
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/tyres-on-the-wrong-way-for-over-two-years.219604/ (started by @GuyBoden)

The point of tread is to spray mud up the back of your jacket in a pattern that makes you look like a really hardened off roader

View attachment 441408

 

[Deleted member 35268]

Ill give them Durano's a go. I think I have had just about every brand and type there is.

 

[Ajax Bay]

Durano Plus, by the way.

Even the fast (dead) bunny thinks they're "very draggy" (so unclear why he sticks with them).

Personally I ride with a mixture of 700c x 25mm Schwalbe Durano plus on one bike, and 700c x 25mm Tannus Aither tyres on my other road bike. The former are very draggy in comparison to a ‘summer’ tyre,

Here is the rollingresistance comparison for three tyres:
Compare/continental-grand-prix-4000s-ii-2014-vs-continental-grand-prix-4-season-2015-vs-schwalbe-durano-plus-2017
The Schwalbe ones are a good lot heavier and score no better on puncture resistance than the 4 Seasons.
See current thread on tyre advice for more.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Woaaahhhaaaaa wind your necks in lads . All my own opinion, i did not trust the M+ in a 25mm size at all when it came to wet roundabouts, the back end would slip and slide underneath me. Not what I want on a roundabout. Very similar if not worse were the Vittoria Voyagers, but again I had them pumped up hard to roll better and less punctures. That is my experience, others on here think both tyres are the best thing since sliced bread, that might be the case but I`ve done plenty commuting miles on various tyres to know what works and what doesn`t for me.

Currently running Conti 4 seasons on the CX and they have been fine up till now, I run Mich Endurance on my road bike again, they are a good tyre. Everything is a compromise if you want to avoid punctures, fact. Me I like a bit of feed back from my tyres.

 

[Ajax Bay]

Was just making sure the OP had some objective facts/opinions on the D+s.

 

[Shortandcrisp]

Were I to ride on half decent ‘A’ roads during the winter, I’d opt for 4 seasons as my winter tyre. As it is, I ride on muddy, flint infested Norfolk country lanes where they wouldn’t last five minutes, so it’s Marathon +’S for me.
With no scientific basis whatsoever, but merely going on a hunch base on experience, I reckon the Marathon’s account for something like a .5mph drop in average speed in comparison to my summer tyres ( Continental 4000’s).

 

[Pale Rider]

Were I to ride on half decent ‘A’ roads during the winter, I’d opt for 4 seasons as my winter tyre. As it is, I ride on muddy, flint infested Norfolk country lanes where they wouldn’t last five minutes, so it’s Marathon +’S for me.
With no scientific basis whatsoever, but merely going on a hunch base on experience, I reckon the Marathon’s account for something like a .5mph drop in average speed in comparison to my summer tyres ( Continental 4000’s).

The air is thinner in summer - I thought everyone knew that.

 

[Shortandcrisp]

The air is thinner in summer - I thought everyone knew that.

I know that. I included that parameter in my ‘calculation’!

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Note for anyone who doesn't already know: We have in the past had long, fruitful and profoundly interesting* threads on the directionality of tyres.

*Some of these descriptions may be inaccurate.

Thanks for that.
I didn't realise that I had wandered into a conflict zone.

Interesting. Please share this bitter experience with us.

I don't think you're interested at all.

I posted in a genuine manner, not realising the history of the subject with the view of offering some assistance to the OP.

As for my bitter experience... I've mounted the rear wheel "the wrong way around" twice.
One time was before a weekend of loaded touring - I only realised the difference afterwards when I rode the bike unloaded. I just put it down to the wind!
The second time I realised straight away on my way to work. What I noticed was that I had to work very hard to try to reach my normal cruising speed. My average speed was about 3-5 kph less than normal.

As for the info from Schwalbe....

What do the direction arrows mean?
Most Schwalbe tire sidewalls are marked with a “ROTATION” arrow, which indicates the recommended rolling direction. When in use, the tire should run in the direction of the arrow. Older tires have the marking “DRIVE”, but it has the same
meaning.

Why are so many treads direction dependant?
In the case of a road tire the rolling direction is mainly important for aesthetic considerations. Tires marked with arrows simply look more dynamic..
Off road, the rolling direction is far more important, as the tread ensures optimum connection between the tire and the ground. The rear wheel transmits the driving force and the front wheel transmits the braking and steering forces. Driving and braking forces operate in different directions. That is why certain tires are fitted in opposite rotating directions when used as front and rear tires.

There are also treads without a specified rotating direction.

Now, if I look up the Marathon Plus tyre on the website, the tyre is classed as a "Tour" tyre (That's why I use them), so I am assuming that this is a separate classification to road tyre, hence the aesthetics argument does not apply. My understanding is that "Tour" tyres are designed to operate well off road as well as on road, so we're moving more towards the statement that "Off road, the rolling direction is far more important"

It's also worth noting that there are 12 different Marathon tyres listed, of which 3 are Pluses. There's always the possibility that some of us are talking at cross purposes, one referencing one type of Marathon tyre, another a different type of tyre, all Marathons, and even all Marathon Pluses. I'm sure none of the experts on here have ever made a mistake in nomenclature, but me? I do it all the time.

My understanding from the OP was that they had recently fitted Marathon Pluses while waiting for new tyres (slicks). They had noticed a significant drop in performance. From my experience, I thought it helpful to offer something to check that may help.

Mea culpa.

Enjoy the bickering. I'll stay in the Touring forum.

 

[MikeG]

..........A tyre pumped to the max or left soft, has exactly the same grip on the same surface.

In terms of per unit area of the contact patch, then yes, you're right. However, the effect of having a tyre very soft is that the contact patch is much larger than one pumped hard, so in absolute terms a soft tyre has much greater grip than a hard tyre.

 

[MrGrumpy]

I would go with that as well, but....... running a tyre softer increases puncture probability. Unless your some light weight wippet , of which I’m definitely not ;-)

 

[MikeG]

But it has less downward pressure over that much larger patch. So the frictional forces are unchanged - according to the numpty physics that I can remember at least. It's true. If you don't trust me, then just google "friction independent surface area" or some such.

Of course in the real world your under-inflated tyres will be squashing along and deforming giving them a higher rolling resistance, and your rock hard over-inflated tyres will be bouncing which will make them feel much different. And also maybe the numpty physics that I can remember which was all about ideal blocks of stuff on inclined planes breaks down a bit in the real world. But the priniciple is there.

Have you tried driving a car in soft dry sand? If you have normally inflated tryes you soon sink. If you deflate your tyres, you carry on driving. Tell me it's not so and I'll ask how I am not stuck in the middle of the Sahara or the Namib.

In other words, deflated tryes offered me more grip when driving off road across Africa. How do bike tyres fundamentally differ from car tyres in this respect?