running red lights

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Tommi

Active Member
Location
London
I think this summarises the issue neatly as I see it. I don't think, to be fair, that we can really state that traffic signals exist due to a 'bad law' it is more, as you say here, a bad implementation of the law in SOME instances. In those instances I think that I am justified in breaking the law PROVIDED THAT IT IS SAFE TO DO SO AND DOES NOT INCONVENIENCE OTHER PEOPLE.
Right, there's the spirit of the law (don't cause harm or distress) and the letter of the law (dont' cross on red) .. It's very bizarre to see such obsession to the letter of the law[sup]1[/sup] with the claim you can't just pick and choose which laws to follow. And yet the same people pick and choose the laws they follow themselves; there's no such obsession for entering ASLs only through the filtering lanes, is there?


Anyway, jumping a red light isn't what causes problems, it's the failure to give way to those who have legitimate priority that does. Conversely unloading in mandatory cycle lane is legal but is it safe and not inconvenience to other people?


1) makes me question how much of Orwell's 1984 really is fiction after all
 

ismailzd

New Member
Location
London (Chelsea)
well do you ,,,????

lets hear the stories

When I work as a courier, I have no time to stop otherwise I will get a shout at from the controlla "Where is the package ?" lol, In non-working days or times I don't jump them :biggrin:
 

al78

Guru
Location
Horsham
Right, there's the spirit of the law (don't cause harm or distress) and the letter of the law (dont' cross on red) .. It's very bizarre to see such obsession to the letter of the law[sup]1[/sup] with the claim you can't just pick and choose which laws to follow. And yet the same people pick and choose the laws they follow themselves; there's no such obsession for entering ASLs only through the filtering lanes, is there?


Anyway, jumping a red light isn't what causes problems, it's the failure to give way to those who have legitimate priority that does. Conversely unloading in mandatory cycle lane is legal but is it safe and not inconvenience to other people?


1) makes me question how much of Orwell's 1984 really is fiction after all

Which is true, because once you allow everyone to do this*, combined with the fallibility of human nature, it will ultimately end up being detrimental to quality of life in general.

*which you must do if you want to avoid accusations of hypocrisy.

Saying it is ok to run red lights just because you personally think it is ok is no different to a motorist thinking it is ok to speed just because they personally think it is safe to do so. If anything, there is more argument for the motorist being able to override the law with judgement as they have had to pass a test of competancy, whereas cyclists have not.
 

Tommi

Active Member
Location
London
Which is true, because once you allow everyone to do this*, combined with the fallibility of human nature, it will ultimately end up being detrimental to quality of life in general.

*which you must do if you want to avoid accusations of hypocrisy.

Saying it is ok to run red lights just because you personally think it is ok is no different to a motorist thinking it is ok to speed just because they personally think it is safe to do so. If anything, there is more argument for the motorist being able to override the law with judgement as they have had to pass a test of competancy, whereas cyclists have not.
I don't really see a problem with that with penalties proportional to risk and consequences. It should be OK to break the letter of the law if the spirit of the law is still maintained. Sure, use your judgement and break the law, but if you were wrong face the maximum penalty with very little wiggle room for defence. (And by penalties I mean something that actually deters bad driving rather than being a friendly reminder to not do that again - somewhere between traffic law penalties and knife/gun law penalties one might find a good compromise for sanity.)

Speeding on an empty motorway with good visibility is very different from speeding on residential roads with parked cars and everything restricting visibility, any law that's only about "breaking the speed limit" is going to miss the point completely. Just like running a red light by itself may be an indicator, but not proof of dangerous driving. But yes, I realise black and white laws are easier. It just seems to lead to focusing on the minutiae and not addressing the whole point, and you end up with legal but dangerous behaviour somehow being more acceptable than illegal and safe.

Regarding hypocrisy, where's the outrage towards all those not using filter lanes to enter ASLs? After all such anarchist behaviour has to be by far more common that jumping red lights.
 

Dan B

Disengaged member
Saying it is ok to run red lights just because you personally think it is ok is no different to a motorist thinking it is ok to speed just because they personally think it is safe to do so
This is true, but this is not what anyone is saying. You can say "I think it is OK because of X, Y and Z", or even "it is OK because of X, Y and Z" with the "I think that ..." implicit as it is in almost every statement of opinion on a forum such as this, but it doesn't follow either that "It must be OK because I think it is OK" or that anyone suggests it does.

I don't insist that carrots are OK just because I think they are. I say carrots are OK because the available evidence is that they don't often kill people. If someone else wants to make the same claim about fire juggling, then they similarly have to do that based on the objective facts and not on "just because"
 

Tommi

Active Member
Location
London
if any of you RLJers get knocked off and break both your legs don't come running to me .........:whistle:
bravo.gif


what if I break just one leg, can I hobble your way then...? anyway, wearing a helmet would prevent such injuries anyway.
 

on the road

Über Member
Surely the way to get laws changes is to operate within the law and use the structures in place that allow for that. Campaigning, pestering MP's, petitions, public awareness campaigns. All legal, all will possably bring about changes in the law. Breaking a law because you do not agree with it or feel it is wrong is no justification at all. I will admit to driving above the speed limit on roads when I feel it is safe to do so but if I am caught I would take full responsability for my actions and not make a fuss as the "law is wrong". If we take your position to its' ultimate conclusion then we would have an anarchic society.

I don't fully understand the blanket 'No, it's against the law' position. Just because something is 'the law' doesn't mean it is right. Sometimes the right thing to do is to break the law. Then there's a possibility that the law gets changed. OK so poor traffic management systems are not in the same league as colonial exploitation, apartheid or oppressive dictatorships, as justifying civil disobedience, but the principle is the same.

Many, if not most traffic lights are entirely sensible and well-designed systems for controlling traffic. There is no justification for failure to observe them even if it causes a minor inconvenience from time to time. This is a compromise that preserves the safety and convenience of all road users.

Sometimes there are lights whose design and operation causes significant inconvenience or even danger to one or more groups of road users because they prioritise the interests of one group over others or, more commonly in my experience, they have simply not taken into account the interests of all road users. In such instances I feel morally entitled, or even obliged, to break the law. This is Jim Callaghan's "contingent right to break a bad law". You should not inconvenience or endanger any other road user and you have to be aware that you are breaking the law and be prepared to accept the sanctions. However most law enforcement agencies recognise that some laws are bad laws and exercise their discretion not to enforce them. If you are a sensible RLJer, exercising your discretion responsibly, the police are quite likely to agree with you!
If the Suffragettes operated within the law all those years ago then women still wouldn't have the vote now.
 

BentMikey

Rider of Seolferwulf
Location
South London
It's a bit of a stretch trying to compare what the Suffragettes did to what a bunch of selfish red light jumping oiks are doing. There's no normal reason to jump lights apart from selfish impatience and 'k everyone else attitude.
 
What could we call the RLJ (red light jumper). I was thinking somthing we could shout at them as they wizz pass as we are stuck at the red lights.

The irony is that a month or so ago. I was stopped at a red light (I was the first vehicle at the intersection) and also ironically the owner of the LBS that I hang out at the most was in line behind me.

While we were waiting for the light to change we had a "lane splitter" shot by me on the left running/jumping the red light. I'm sure most here probably know what a "lane splitter" is, but ya may have a different term for it. A "lane splitter" is someone who on a multi-laned road will ride between two lanes of stopped or slow moving traffic.

Shortly after the "lane splitter" runs the right here comes another guy on a "bicycle shaped object" this time on the sidewalk/pavement he too runs/jumps the red light, but unlike the the first one. This guy is carrying a curling bar across his handlebars.

0074117847069_500X500.jpg


The really sad thing is that the motorists who were sitting around that intersection will only remember the two cyclists who ran/jumped the red light. Also sadly these two guys ran/jumped the next red light or two down the road as the one that they passed me at.
 
I don't really see a problem with that with penalties proportional to risk and consequences. It should be OK to break the letter of the law if the spirit of the law is still maintained. Sure, use your judgement and break the law, but if you were wrong face the maximum penalty with very little wiggle room for defence. (And by penalties I mean something that actually deters bad driving rather than being a friendly reminder to not do that again - somewhere between traffic law penalties and knife/gun law penalties one might find a good compromise for sanity.)

Speeding on an empty motorway with good visibility is very different from speeding on residential roads with parked cars and everything restricting visibility, any law that's only about "breaking the speed limit" is going to miss the point completely. Just like running a red light by itself may be an indicator, but not proof of dangerous driving. But yes, I realise black and white laws are easier. It just seems to lead to focusing on the minutiae and not addressing the whole point, and you end up with legal but dangerous behaviour somehow being more acceptable than illegal and safe.

Regarding hypocrisy, where's the outrage towards all those not using filter lanes to enter ASLs? After all such anarchist behaviour has to be by far more common that jumping red lights.

Actually, if you look at the first link in my signature. It is about a JAM (Jacka$$ Motorist) who had a blood alcohol well over the legal limit, who also had a history of running/jumping red lights, speeding, driving without a license, and/or insurance, who ended up hitting and killing a cyclist. So I would have to say that those who habitually engage in such behavior are a clear and present danger to EVERYONE on the road.
 
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