Show us your Daft, Pointless or plain hard to use cycle lanes.

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If (as is the case on my daughter's school run) you have to cut diagonally across the strip to cross the road, those surfaces are lethal in the wet. The small wheels on her bike slide off the raised surface, causing her to fall off.
In my experience, lethal on small wheels (Brompton) *and* large ones (Workcycles Fr8) - catch them slightly skew and you 'tramline', which is not pleasant. I've not fallen yet, but am taking to the pedestrian side of the shared path in two new stretches of cycle path near me to avoid turning over them esp. if wet / leafy.
 

PK99

Legendary Member
Location
SW19
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The cycle lane in Nottingham that seems to be pretty useless (Picture: NTI)

"Some bright spark decided that rather than having cyclists go for another few feet they needed to mount the kerb and negotiate a sharp turn."
Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/07/18/is-th...ycle-lane-ever-painted-6013255/#ixzz4OURKqThI

That does not look so daft, surely?

It reads as giving access to a shared pavement and avoids a confusing right turn from road to pavement...

If staying on the road and turning right, use junction as normal.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Coronation Road in Bristol. I had to explain to my wife one day why cyclists used the road as opposed to the cycle path.
Haven't they fixed that one yet? It's been a laughing stock for as long as I can remember being aware of it. Here it is in 2001.

I don't think it's that simple. Different cyclists will want different things, depending on their skill and experience level. The experienced roadie just wants to remain on the road normally, the parent with young children wants cycle paths everywhere.
I'm not sure that's true. The main reason experienced roadies want to remain on the road is that much of what's built off-road is substandard crap with lumpy surfaces that doesn't flow and loses priority at every farm field gate, isn't it? Over in the Netherlands, chaingangs seem quite happy blasting along cycle tracks. And as it's been put to me, why would anyone think that a parent with young children wants an obstacle course?

So do you think that local councils (I presume they have the responsibility for cycle lanes) have an anti-cycling agenda that is met by putting in rubbish infrastructure?
Occasionally there are individual cycle-haters who subvert schemes and get away with it because the process is weak. I strongly suspect cabinet member for transport at North Somerset Council, Elfan Ap Rees, is one - he's been proud to unveil lumpy cycle tracks only on the downhill sides of roads and once launched a cycle lane on the central reservation side of a dual carriageway - I guess it helped allow them to spend the cycling budget on the dual carriagway without getting in the way of motorists. Mostly though, it seems to be a consequence of a hazardous mix of weak and poor guidance, inexperience, incomprehension and underfunding.

Responsibility for cycling facilities is split: along motorways and major roads is Highways England or the devolved administrations (including TfL); along most other roads is the responsibility of highway authorities (mostly county councils, unitary councils or borough councils in London) and away from roads is anybody's guess but often the borough/district/city councils, but could be the Environment Agency, National Trust or private landowners. Of course, this means that any cycling design expertise is diluted even further. Some of the better borough/district/city council facilities happen because they are on friendly terms with the highway authority and use their designers.

It does feel like the design and sign off is done without any input from cyclists. I wonder if that's the case, and if so why?
It is the case. If we are very lucky, there is a consultation step before sign-off, but there is no requirement for it, no requirement to change anything (not even obvious dangers and practical problems like posts in a track surface), no scrutiny by councillors and design changes sometimes keep on happening right up until construction. Even where a cycle track or lane is included in a planning application (which does have more scrutiny than highway design on its own, and has certain legal process requirements), the cycling element is frequently different to the approved plan and departing from the plan is not regarded as sufficient to refuse permission, when farking the motoring accesses would be.

And I can safely guarantee that I'd gladly cycle over the rumble strips going against my line of travel rather than the ones going in my direction (and when I'm a pedestrian with a sleeping child in a pram / pushchair, I'd rather walk on the cycle side).
Does the guidance you have mention that the tactiles should not be installed within a certain distance of a corner or barrier? That often seems to be ignored, leading to predictable crashes.

But in general, I agree that tactile use appears to have been defined without any awareness of how cycles ride or any knowledge of how places like the Netherlands use them - I think the pedestrian side may have surfaces to indicate to walkers they are entering/leaving a footway, but the cycle side would be smooth.
 
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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
That does not look so daft, surely?

It reads as giving access to a shared pavement and avoids a confusing right turn from road to pavement...

If staying on the road and turning right, use junction as normal.
It looks daft to me, making cyclists do two tight turns and then give way to the flow of traffic that they were already in. Why do you feel it's confusing to turn right directly onto the cycle track? Are you confused by all movements that cars may not legally make?
 
U

User482

Guest
In my experience, lethal on small wheels (Brompton) *and* large ones (Workcycles Fr8) - catch them slightly skew and you 'tramline', which is not pleasant. I've not fallen yet, but am taking to the pedestrian side of the shared path in two new stretches of cycle path near me to avoid turning over them esp. if wet / leafy.

Yep, come to think of it I fell off there a few years ago.
 
Does the guidance you have mention that the tactiles should not be installed within a certain distance of a corner or barrier? That often seems to be ignored, leading to predictable crashes.

But in general, I agree that tactile use appears to have been defined without any awareness of how cycles ride or any knowledge of how places like the Netherlands use them - I think the pedestrian side may have surfaces to indicate to walkers they are entering/leaving a footway, but the cycle side would be smooth.

Not sure, there are 108 pages (!)

You can avoid some unnecessary tactile use by making sure the path is on the 'right' side at a junction, as tactiles not needed on the cycle bit if it isn't possible for visually impaired people to move to the 'wrong' side without realising, eg top here clearly preferable to bottom!

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LCpl Boiled Egg

Three word soundbite
I don't think it's that simple. Different cyclists will want different things, depending on their skill and experience level. The experienced roadie just wants to remain on the road normally, the parent with young children wants cycle paths everywhere. Then there are the bod's at the council that can be well meaning, and look at their accident stats and try to sort them out but not always in a way that is appreciated, sometimes they are right, some times they are wrong. Money is short so they can't spend millions on producing fantastic cycle facilities.

I agree that different cyclists want different things, but most cyclists pay taxes that go towards the infrastructure. If that infrastructure only meets half the requirements of one of those groups, then it's pointless. The group they're trying to help end up worse off than they were before.

So do you think that local councils (I presume they have the responsibility for cycle lanes) have an anti-cycling agenda that is met by putting in rubbish infrastructure?

I doubt that very much. I think it's down to ignorance on the part of whoever has input into the design and sign off. I'm sure lack of money is the reason behind some of the rubbish infrastructure. However, I think a fair bit is down to poor design. It does feel like the design and sign off is done without any input from cyclists. I wonder if that's the case, and if so why?

No, I do not think councils have an anti-cycling agenda, and the lack of provision is usually blamed on lack of money. However, around my way they seem to be able find millions to fund a bypass but can't consider joining up the outlying villages to the city being bypassed with decent cycle tracks, or improving the journey to the rail station in preparation for the new homes they're building on the opposite side of the city.

I'm talking about things that have input from cycling groups from the outset, but do not end up with anything that has been agreed between those people and the authorities throughout the design process. The input is there, but it is ignored. Why is that?
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
You can avoid some unnecessary tactile use by making sure the path is on the 'right' side at a junction, as tactiles not needed on the cycle bit if it isn't possible for visually impaired people to move to the 'wrong' side without realising, eg top here clearly preferable to bottom!
The problem with that layout is that it means the cycle track can only connect to other tracks on one side. Then, if there's a carriageway on one side (so no cycle tracks directly connecting on that side), it probably means pedestrians are being put next to the carriageway and they naturally prefer to walk as far away from the marauding motors as they can, so they walk on the cycle track side and there's almost no point in segregating tracks in the UK until that changes.

I think the Dutch layout would be B without the tramlines on the cycle side. After all, that's similar to how it would look in the UK where a footway crosses a carriageway, except then I think they use blister paving instead of rumble lines.

However, around my way they seem to be able find millions to fund a bypass but can't consider joining up the outlying villages to the city being bypassed with decent cycle tracks, or improving the journey to the rail station in preparation for the new homes they're building on the opposite side of the city.
That's Political Will for you! I've no idea who he is, but I'm often told he's lacking and that's why we don't get these things. I guess what we need to do is to kick up a stink before next May's county council elections and get him replaced with councillors who promise to do good stuff for cycling.

What really sucks is when bypasses and ring roads are built and the old roads get jackhammered instead of restricted to non-motoring use.
I'm talking about things that have input from cycling groups from the outset, but do not end up with anything that has been agreed between those people and the authorities throughout the design process. The input is there, but it is ignored. Why is that?
Apart from a few places where a cycling group is organised enough, militant enough and large enough to disrupt the project and cost the authorities thousands of pounds, there's basically no penalty for ignoring the input. And of course, how big/organised a cycling group has to be to disrupt a project varies from project to project or even on one project with time... and there's constant dangers of motorist-cyclists pushing for compromise because lots of so-called cycling projects now have very explicit benefits for motorists, and quite a few long-term advocates who seem so fed up with cycling getting crumbs that they'll accept mouldy cake rather than keep calling for a fair square meal.
 
I think the Dutch layout would be B without the tramlines on the cycle side. After all, that's similar to how it would look in the UK where a footway crosses a carriageway, except then I think they use blister paving instead of rumble lines.
Yes, blister for crossing a segregated cycle lane as well here.
Issue would be (if that were a road / pedestrian crossing, not just another cycle path) how a visually impaired pedestrian crossing the road finds the right 'bit' and doesn't end up in the cycle path. Blisters all the way to the pedestrian bit?
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Issue would be (if that were a road / pedestrian crossing, not just another cycle path) how a visually impaired pedestrian crossing the road finds the right 'bit' and doesn't end up in the cycle path. Blisters all the way to the pedestrian bit?
Well, how does a visually impaired pedestrian crossing the road find the right 'bit' and not end up in the carriageway?
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Blisters both sides, and usually crosses square? T-junction as pictured a bit more complex.
So just make sure it adheres to the same principles when a footway crosses a cycle track. I really don't understand why this always seems to be such a problem in this country and worth adding artificial tramlines for cyclists to fall off on. If anything, crashing bikes is not really safe for visually-impaired pedestrians either.
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
I'm talking about things that have input from cycling groups from the outset, but do not end up with anything that has been agreed between those people and the authorities throughout the design process. The input is there, but it is ignored. Why is that?

A combination of other priorities in infrastructure design and poorly run and organised cycling groups
 

MontyVeda

a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
So just make sure it adheres to the same principles when a footway crosses a cycle track. I really don't understand why this always seems to be such a problem in this country and worth adding artificial tramlines for cyclists to fall off on. If anything, crashing bikes is not really safe for visually-impaired pedestrians either.
what are these artificial tramlines you speak of?
 
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