I didn't mean a sign using the word primary but a simple diagram would suffice like most traffic signs. Or even 'cyclists, ride in the centre of the lane'
So I cycled the one-way road that cyclist Claire Hitier-Abadie was killed on (50 second video)
- Thread starter Mr_Kipling
- Start date
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Drago
Legendary Member
- Location
- Suburban Poshshire
Isn't the average speed for cyclists in London supposed to be higher than motorised transport? Proper lane management, education and road markings/signage would resolve this.
Well put it this way. The 12 miles direct main road route door to door on my SE London commute is quicker on the bike. Most of the traffic is school run.
Three out of four of this year's London cycling fatalities have been women. The potential danger of left-turning trucks is the same for men. How do men avoid similar dangers on the same roads.
Time to take a serious look at what women do differently that puts them in so much danger.
Is it lack of roadsense
Poor positioning
Lack of experience
Lack of assertiveness and aggression?
More law abiding, ie not pre-empting green lights but waiting patiently for green.
Do they ride bikes with poorer performance, ie heavier, slower to accelerate.
Do women need special training courses to cover this specific lethal situation?
We can try an shift responsibility to truck drivers, but to ride like this is not a problem for us is just stupid.
I am sure there are individual women who can ride London streets with assurance but the numbers say that many cannot.
Time to take a serious look at what women do differently that puts them in so much danger.
Is it lack of roadsense
Poor positioning
Lack of experience
Lack of assertiveness and aggression?
More law abiding, ie not pre-empting green lights but waiting patiently for green.
Do they ride bikes with poorer performance, ie heavier, slower to accelerate.
Do women need special training courses to cover this specific lethal situation?
We can try an shift responsibility to truck drivers, but to ride like this is not a problem for us is just stupid.
I am sure there are individual women who can ride London streets with assurance but the numbers say that many cannot.
Globalti
Legendary Member
I understand that the cyclist was killed as the truck was taking the corner. No truck driver would have tried to overtake in such narrow lanes.
The best explanation I've seen for the preponderance of women victims is that women are less territorial than men and so less likely to be bothered by other vehicles in their road space.
The best explanation I've seen for the preponderance of women victims is that women are less territorial than men and so less likely to be bothered by other vehicles in their road space.
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I think the responsibility lies more with the haulage companies than the individual drivers.
Globalti
Legendary Member
No, the responsibility lies with people who casually jump on a bike and ride it around without a care for their actions, in the self-righteous belief that they occupy the moral high ground so can do as they please. When will people start to take responsibility for their actions and the consequences rather than blame others?
(I write this without reference to the tragic case under discussion because as yet, nobody knows what happened.)
The embarrassing aggression of some cyclists towards drivers is the main reason why I don't ride with a club.
(I write this without reference to the tragic case under discussion because as yet, nobody knows what happened.)
The embarrassing aggression of some cyclists towards drivers is the main reason why I don't ride with a club.
w00hoo_kent
One of the 64K
- Location
- Maidstone or Greenwich
On the primary idea, would some sharrows (sorry, I don't know what the UK term for them is) be something at least? Easy enough to paint on.
A year or two ago there was a program about the woman who was killed by a left turning concrete truck. Following her mother campaigning against the company for more safety. I believe they talked there about the ratio of female to male deaths and the feeling from their research was that the norm was for female cyclists to be less willing to take the lane and force other road users to give them space. It was much more likely for them to 'hide' in the gutter. It's possible that there was a misconception that this was safer (because they were 'out of the road') without acknowledging that giving motor vehicles an inch means that they will push themselves through non-existent gaps.
Commute times. Once the traffic starts building up the bicycle covers the ground faster every time. Last average speed I saw quoted for the busy bit of London was 12mph I believe. Even with my current fitness level I'm happily above that. I believe I would beat a car on my 12 mile commute (if it took the same route) on all but the clearest days. My ride is around 50 minutes, as with the other poster I don't RLJ, when I've taken the car my worst days have been almost 2 hours.
Thinking about it, if it turns out that the cyclist did come up the inside of a left turning lorry then that proves that even on a Boris bike she was travelling faster than the traffic around her.
A year or two ago there was a program about the woman who was killed by a left turning concrete truck. Following her mother campaigning against the company for more safety. I believe they talked there about the ratio of female to male deaths and the feeling from their research was that the norm was for female cyclists to be less willing to take the lane and force other road users to give them space. It was much more likely for them to 'hide' in the gutter. It's possible that there was a misconception that this was safer (because they were 'out of the road') without acknowledging that giving motor vehicles an inch means that they will push themselves through non-existent gaps.
Commute times. Once the traffic starts building up the bicycle covers the ground faster every time. Last average speed I saw quoted for the busy bit of London was 12mph I believe. Even with my current fitness level I'm happily above that. I believe I would beat a car on my 12 mile commute (if it took the same route) on all but the clearest days. My ride is around 50 minutes, as with the other poster I don't RLJ, when I've taken the car my worst days have been almost 2 hours.
Thinking about it, if it turns out that the cyclist did come up the inside of a left turning lorry then that proves that even on a Boris bike she was travelling faster than the traffic around her.
I did mention this in the original 'Cyclist down' thread - I walked past the accident just after it happened on Thursday, and walking in this morning, there was a police presence grabbing cyclists who were breaking the rules. One guy on a Boris bike going the wrong way down a one way street who (I think) had just tried to barrel through some pedestrians who were crossing at the junction opposite the accident site.
And then 100 yards down the road, another cyclist being directed onto the pavement for a 'chat' after he jumped a red light.
And then 100 yards down the road, another cyclist being directed onto the pavement for a 'chat' after he jumped a red light.
Globalti
Legendary Member
Lancashire Police regularly tweet about the activities of their traffic officers in order to create the impression that they're out there actively patrolling and catching people. The public has no way of knowing whether the incidents are really happening or just fiction. Surely it wouldn't be too difficult for other Police forces to mount the same social media campaign aimed at bicycle riders? They being generally young and, one would suppose, media-savvy, it shouldn't be too difficult to build up an atmosphere of fear of random checks. The lack of visible patrols and therefore fear is what's encouraging motorists to break traffic laws with such impunity all over the country.
Origamist
Legendary Member
Origamist
Legendary Member
Cyclists are more at risk through road works and TFL have specific guidance on this (my bolds):
"Where cyclists are on-carriageway and the speed limit is 30mph or 20mph, it is usually desirable to keep them on carriageway through the roadworks. In this case, a wide lane (minimum width of 4m) enables drivers of all motor vehicles to overtake cyclists with an acceptable clearance.
If a 4m lane width cannot be achieved then, according to advice given in TAL 15/99 Cyclists at Roadworks (1999), a ‘narrow’ lane width of up to 3.25m to 3.50m will enable car drivers to overtake comfortably and will generally deter drivers of larger vehicles from trying to pass at all.
If 3.25m cannot be provided, then a ‘narrow’ lane width of up to 3.25m and a speed limit of 20mph should be considered with signs stating ‘narrow lane(s): do not overtake cyclists’. Lane widths between 3.50m and 4m should normally be avoided as drivers of large vehicles may attempt to overtake cyclists without adequate clearance."
The lane widths in the clip are not easy to estimate - but look around the 3.5m (using the 2.5m wide bus as a guide)...Hopefully, the investigation into this tragedy will examine the lane widths and best practice guidance.
w00hoo_kent
One of the 64K
- Location
- Maidstone or Greenwich
I realise that anecdotally the cyclist seems to have breaking the law and not riding with their own safety in mind at the point she was killed, but it still feels somewhat crass to be concentrating on cyclists in the area as the problem. It may just be my perception of these things, but it seems the reaction is much more often 'let's concentrate on the cyclists' than 'let's deal with all road users' or 'let's look in to the most dangerous vehicles.' It'll be interesting to see if there are stories of cyclists being stopped while doing nothing wrong this time round.
subaqua
What’s the point
- Location
- Leytonstone
I believe the company I work for was one of the first to use these signs , based on feedback from one of its employees who shall remain nameless. I may be wrong but it was suggested and used before this https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/cy...er_uploads/appendix-cyclists-at-roadworks.pdf was issued.
