or a bent hanger
So, this might have happened... NBD - 2016 Fuji Touring workhorse
- Thread starter wafter
- Start date
Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.
or a bent hanger
Thanks both.
As I think I've posted elsewhere I've done my best to check hanger alignment, although this was hampered by a couple of factors - the fact that the paint on the hanger has chipped across the majority of the hanger (so no longer provides a flat / square register face for the tool) and potentially the cheap tool itself.
I'm tempted to take all the paint off that area to give a flat face, but am very much aware that this would mean running it unprotected as anything I apply is just going to get crushed / chipped by the RD.
I guess it's also possible that something more fundamental is at fault (the bike has had a new rear rim in the past - potentially due to accident damage) although I've not spotted anything glaringly obvious in the bike's behaviour / fitment of parts / whilst working on it that would suggest this.
Finally just to summarise the situation regarding relevant components and what's been done (with no longstanding difference apparent after any of the changes):
Cable outers: Replaced with new in areas of tightest rads (under bar tape from bar end shifters)
Cable inners: Replaced with new; hanging up / creep seems unlikely since ghost shifts happen in both directions
Shifters: Original; Creep seems unlikely since ghost shifts happen in both directions
Rear derailleur: Replaced with new
Cassette: Original, doesn't appear excessively worn, assume that if it was it'd be skipping as well..
Chain: Replaced, same behaviour with both half-worn (apparently) original and new replacement
Perhaps somewhat oddly the replacement derailleur (Shimano FD-M592-SGS from a reputable UK supplier) feels similar to the original (Shimano FD-M591-SGS) in terms of component movement - with a bit of slop in the parallelogram and maybe a couple of mm lateral float in the top jockey wheel. By contrast the GRX 810 item on my Genesis seems to have none of this movement...
Finally this isn't "just something that non-indexed shifters do", is it? I can understand a late / delayed shift if it's not quite aligned, ticks for a bit and finally makes the jump... however it's not right that it just shifts of it's own accord potentially minutes after the lever's been operated is it?
bikingdad90
Guru
It isn’t something stupid like the cable routing on the frame itself like the incorrect bottom bracket cable guide or when you flex the frame under load it is crimping/catching the cable?
Depending on the hub speed, it isn’t missing a spacer on the cassette and the cassette is moving under load?
Depending on the hub speed, it isn’t missing a spacer on the cassette and the cassette is moving under load?
Last edited:
Thanks - feck knows tbh but I appreciate the suggestions!
AFAIK the BB guide is original with no obvious points of restriction; while I don't think it's related to frame-flex as it does it both under load and when just wafting along with little force at the pedal.
I did suspect the cassette; although there appears to be zero float / play present. The problem has been consistant in the near-4k miles I've put on the bike - which I think rules out sprocket wear as I'd imagine it'd be unuseable due to skipping by now.. on top of that I think it's all pretty low-mileage (original tyres when I bought it, probably original chain too at about 50% worn).
I do have a spare cassette but am not sure I can be arsed with the faff of swapping it all over; I guess it could rule out another component however.
When I changed the RD I also swapped back to the original inner cable (since the run is shorter and I didn't want to crimp the replacement I had been using inboard of its previous clamp-point in case I wanted to refit the original RD). I'd waxed this, which retrospectively might not be the best lube against the outer's synthetic liner...
Since a number of things have changed I've again been trying to note the circumstances under which the problems occur.
One definite example was a surprise shift up (to a smaller sprocket) just after down-shifting to hit a small hill; so I guess this could have been due to slop / creep in the shifter (being pulled to the necessary point to shift to the gear it was initially in, then "relaxing" / creeping back to allow the gear to shift to the next smallest) however IME it takes quite a lot of lever displacement to actually shift, and I've not noticed this much (or indeed any) movement of it's own volition.
I don't think cable drag could be responsible for this one since it had already been pulled enough to select the larger sproket, if this makes sense.. while I could understand this argument had it happened after an upshift.
I also had another couple of nasty ones under high load (although thankfully at low speed) - cadence and speed were that low that I'm not sure whether the two near-consecutive jolts could be attributed to a shift between sprockets or the chain skipping on the cassette.
Tbh this is really starting to piss me off now - it was much less of an issue when I was covering all of about 10 sedate miles a week on the bike; now I'm doing double that in a day it's breeding a lot of mistrust in the bike and making it feel really unrefined; which is a shame as it's a real pleasure to ride otherwise.
Maybe I'll pile all the necessary bits into the car and swap the cassette at the weekend; just in case.
Another tedious update..
I've not (yet?) replaced the cassette as it's a pain in the arse and I'm not convinced it's the problem. It's seemingly not covered that much distance, the problem has remained largely constant despite the addition of many more miles since purchase, the problem persists throughout the whole cassette rather than just on the most-likely-worn sprockets and @Gunk's suggestion of checking teeth for lips / burrs revealed no such issues.
I've still been attempting to consciously log the circumstances under which the shifting issues occur, and since replacing the RD it appears that all those I've been able to remember have been surprise shifts up (to a smaller sprocket) after an intentional shift down (to a larger sprocket).
This suggests to me a lever issue - with tension being applied to the cable via the lever, which then falls slightly when the lever is released allowing the RD spring to pull it towards the outside of the cassette slightly. Since this could be caused by a lack of lever tightness I've wound it up a little and fingers' crossed it's been fine for about 15 miles, with the exception of one little indiscretion which felt a bit different and could possibly have been the result of poor shifting on my part.
For the 72nd time, time will tell I suppose.
EDIT: Still behaving much the same as it was (i.e. ghost-shifting in both directions) on the way into work today... closest it's ever come to going in the river tbh
I've not (yet?) replaced the cassette as it's a pain in the arse and I'm not convinced it's the problem. It's seemingly not covered that much distance, the problem has remained largely constant despite the addition of many more miles since purchase, the problem persists throughout the whole cassette rather than just on the most-likely-worn sprockets and @Gunk's suggestion of checking teeth for lips / burrs revealed no such issues.
I've still been attempting to consciously log the circumstances under which the shifting issues occur, and since replacing the RD it appears that all those I've been able to remember have been surprise shifts up (to a smaller sprocket) after an intentional shift down (to a larger sprocket).
This suggests to me a lever issue - with tension being applied to the cable via the lever, which then falls slightly when the lever is released allowing the RD spring to pull it towards the outside of the cassette slightly. Since this could be caused by a lack of lever tightness I've wound it up a little and fingers' crossed it's been fine for about 15 miles, with the exception of one little indiscretion which felt a bit different and could possibly have been the result of poor shifting on my part.
For the 72nd time, time will tell I suppose.
EDIT: Still behaving much the same as it was (i.e. ghost-shifting in both directions) on the way into work today... closest it's ever come to going in the river tbh
Last edited:
More idle and inconsequential thoughts while I wait for water to stop falling from the sky outside..
I've investigated the float in the top RD jockey wheel and found that it's apparently a Shimano thing that's intended to improve shifting, presumably because it reduces the precision required on the derailleur position to give correct alignment between chain and cassette.
I've also read suggested that the float is also of benefit to friction shifting; however I can see how it could potentially be a hinderence. On an indexed system (as everything was by the time the 9sp on the bike was established) a floating guide wheel might be handy for accounting for small discrepencies in alignment; where each click might consistently get the wheel within say half a mm of where it needs to be.
Conversely on a non-indexed setup it seems a given that RD / chain / cassette alignment will be far less consistant and precise. I can see a situation where the lever is operated just enough to cause a shift from one sprocket to the next, which could then potentially be "undone" by the c.1mm lateral float in the jockey wheel. This would be consistant with some of the "indecision" I sometimes experience after a shift, as well as the fact that the problem occurs when shifting in either direction.
To counter that idea it would seem reasonable to assume that during a shift the jockey wheel is pushed to one extreme of its lateral float within the cage (presumably resisting / lagging the direction of cage travel) so if anything float should push it further into engagement rather than out when floating.
Anyway I've had the pulleys out of the old RD (which I believe to be the same as those in the new one) and found that it should potentially be straightforward to shim the setup to effectively remove the float; I just need to get my hands on some appropriate shims.. worst-case it might at least rule out the float as the problem (although after this I'm out of ideas).
It was quite interesting to look at the different formats of the jockey wheels - the upper / guide one having a pretty neat four-segment plain bush pressed into the plastic wheel to run on the boss that's clamped between the sides of the cage, while the lower tension pulley just makes do with the plain placcy wheel running on the bush.
In other news I've made an effort to tidy up the cable ends on the bike. For reasons many will never understand I don't like crimped-on ends, so this time the cables have been cut to a nice clean square end with the cutting disc on the rotary tool and sealed with a blob of superglue applied to the end, which capilliaried in fairly nicely.
I'm hoping this will be enough to prevent them fraying; time will tell. Ideally I'd have preferred solder (which won't bond to stainless) or the neat fused finish you get on new cables although obviously I lack the kit to do this... I did wonder if a battery spot welder could be repurposed as it shouldn't take a lot of power.
Finally I missed the Fuji's "birthday" last month; it now having been with me for a bit over three years and covered around 4300 miles in this time; with about 2k miles having been since I moved in April. Persistant ghost shifting notwithstanding it's served me really well in this time even if the bar end shifters and arguably drops aren't ideal for city riding
I've investigated the float in the top RD jockey wheel and found that it's apparently a Shimano thing that's intended to improve shifting, presumably because it reduces the precision required on the derailleur position to give correct alignment between chain and cassette.
I've also read suggested that the float is also of benefit to friction shifting; however I can see how it could potentially be a hinderence. On an indexed system (as everything was by the time the 9sp on the bike was established) a floating guide wheel might be handy for accounting for small discrepencies in alignment; where each click might consistently get the wheel within say half a mm of where it needs to be.
Conversely on a non-indexed setup it seems a given that RD / chain / cassette alignment will be far less consistant and precise. I can see a situation where the lever is operated just enough to cause a shift from one sprocket to the next, which could then potentially be "undone" by the c.1mm lateral float in the jockey wheel. This would be consistant with some of the "indecision" I sometimes experience after a shift, as well as the fact that the problem occurs when shifting in either direction.
To counter that idea it would seem reasonable to assume that during a shift the jockey wheel is pushed to one extreme of its lateral float within the cage (presumably resisting / lagging the direction of cage travel) so if anything float should push it further into engagement rather than out when floating.
Anyway I've had the pulleys out of the old RD (which I believe to be the same as those in the new one) and found that it should potentially be straightforward to shim the setup to effectively remove the float; I just need to get my hands on some appropriate shims.. worst-case it might at least rule out the float as the problem (although after this I'm out of ideas).
It was quite interesting to look at the different formats of the jockey wheels - the upper / guide one having a pretty neat four-segment plain bush pressed into the plastic wheel to run on the boss that's clamped between the sides of the cage, while the lower tension pulley just makes do with the plain placcy wheel running on the bush.
In other news I've made an effort to tidy up the cable ends on the bike. For reasons many will never understand I don't like crimped-on ends, so this time the cables have been cut to a nice clean square end with the cutting disc on the rotary tool and sealed with a blob of superglue applied to the end, which capilliaried in fairly nicely.
I'm hoping this will be enough to prevent them fraying; time will tell. Ideally I'd have preferred solder (which won't bond to stainless) or the neat fused finish you get on new cables although obviously I lack the kit to do this... I did wonder if a battery spot welder could be repurposed as it shouldn't take a lot of power.
Finally I missed the Fuji's "birthday" last month; it now having been with me for a bit over three years and covered around 4300 miles in this time; with about 2k miles having been since I moved in April. Persistant ghost shifting notwithstanding it's served me really well in this time even if the bar end shifters and arguably drops aren't ideal for city riding
Last edited:
I had the pleasure of experiencing some sprocket indecision earlier - characterised by the bike randomly shifting from one sprocket to the next and back again perhaps every 10-20 seconds.
Fortuitously this happened on a really quiet back road, allowing me to eyeball what was going on at the guide pulley. Sure enough (unsuprisingly) each unwelcome shift was accompanied by the guide jockey wheel moving from one extreme of its float to the other across the cage.
To put some numbers on this, IIRC the sprocket pitch on the 9sp cassette is around 4.3mm while as previously mentioned the lateral float in the guide wheel is around 1.0mm; about 20-25% of the pitch between the sprockets. Presumably it takes a fair bit less movement in the derailleur than the entire sprocket pitch to actually cause the chain to shift, however I can't off the top of my head think of a way this could be measured accurately / repeatably so it's probably easier just to remove the float and see if anything changes.
Finally I'm half tempted to pull to bits the GRX RD810 on the CdF to take a look at / measure the jockey wheels as these feel really tight laterally-speaking; suggesting that they're probably running on ball races which would probably be a better idea all around and probably quite a nice upgrade if they're a straight swap.
Fortuitously this happened on a really quiet back road, allowing me to eyeball what was going on at the guide pulley. Sure enough (unsuprisingly) each unwelcome shift was accompanied by the guide jockey wheel moving from one extreme of its float to the other across the cage.
To put some numbers on this, IIRC the sprocket pitch on the 9sp cassette is around 4.3mm while as previously mentioned the lateral float in the guide wheel is around 1.0mm; about 20-25% of the pitch between the sprockets. Presumably it takes a fair bit less movement in the derailleur than the entire sprocket pitch to actually cause the chain to shift, however I can't off the top of my head think of a way this could be measured accurately / repeatably so it's probably easier just to remove the float and see if anything changes.
Finally I'm half tempted to pull to bits the GRX RD810 on the CdF to take a look at / measure the jockey wheels as these feel really tight laterally-speaking; suggesting that they're probably running on ball races which would probably be a better idea all around and probably quite a nice upgrade if they're a straight swap.
Last edited:
DCBassman
Guru
- Location
- The lumpy far South West
I'm beginning to think, having read these two posts, that you may have answered your iwn questions. As you effectively have a new setup with tjis replacement RD, go for a from-scratch setup as an indexed system. If it plays nicely, then non-indexed is perhaps not the way to go with those components. Otherwise, I'm still thinking misalignment somewhere. The float is definitely supposed to be there, but I can see why it might screw it up in non-indexed mode.
My memories of early indexed stuff, which nearly always had a non-indexed setting, was that they were less generally accurate, so needed the alternative.
My memories of early indexed stuff, which nearly always had a non-indexed setting, was that they were less generally accurate, so needed the alternative.
All uphill
Still rolling along
- Location
- Somerset
Have you tried the bike with an unwaxed chain?
Well, to an extent as I've not replaced everything. In principle I agree with your suggestion although in practice indexed options are very limited and I'm not prepared to expend the time and money in exploring this route.
The current shifter will do indexed, but as previously mentioned in this thread I can't set this up properly as the indexed increments on the shifter appear to be mis-matched with those at the RD.. although I wonder if the effect of this is being exacerbated by the floating setup too - i.e. as the position of the RD becomes progressively more out of phase with the sprockets, the float is allowing the chain to skip to the adjacent sprocket earlier than it otherwise would had it been fixed.
Ultimately it seems that the far easier and cheaper route currently is to investigate the role of the jockey wheel float by removing, or at least minimising it.
Not consciously / intentionally since it was all cleaned up post-purchase; and given the mess involved I'm reluctant to do so now.
Further developments as concisely(!) as possible..
Following the musings on the RD jockey wheels above I committed fully to the rabbithole, and after making assumptions upon consumption of lots of internet insunation and supposition came to the conclusion that broadly speaking, all recent Shimano jockey wheels are interchangeable as long as they have the same amount of teeth (or at least all 11t Shimano jockey wheels for 8-11sp setups are interchangeable).
This was despite practically zero supporting evidence being available in Shimano's own documentation...
Also missing from any sources I could find was confirmation whether the upper / guide pulleys on any given derailleur had lateral float. I found that available guide pulleys break down broadly into two formats - bushed and ball-raced.
The bushed pulleys are found at the lower end of Shimano's offerings and have an 8mm OD steel boss upon which the pulley runs via a press-fit plain bush. These are available both with and without lateral float. The ball-raced items are as they sound; containing a single sealed ball race which if designed correctly shouldn't permit any intentional lateral float.
So, the ball-raced examples seemed like a better bet both for certainty that they'd have no float as well as the obvious lower friction / smoother running nature of ball bearings over bushes.
Further digging revealed that the lowest-spec / cheapest current-spec ball raced pulleys are the Y3E998010 set - listed as fitting RDs from the last iterations of mid-high end 11s road, gravel and MTB groupsets including Ultegra R8000, GRX RX800 and Deore XT M8000.
The one (IIRC) exception to the above is the GRX RD-RX810 (intended for 2x setups) which runs a 13t tensioner pulley at the bottom as opposed to the 11t of all the others, but retains an 11t guide pulley at the top.
Despite the RX810's anomalous tensioner pulley it seemed a safe assumption that the 11t top / guide pulleys would be the same across all of these, so I snaffled the one present in the RD-RX810 fitted to my CdF 30 which continues to sit shamefully idle and incomplete as a result of the ongoing crankset debacle my wonky legs have foisted upon me...
Guide pulleys below - left: bushed item from RD-M592 9sp RD currently fitted to the Fuji, right: ball-raced item from the 11sp RD-RX810 fitted to the CdF:
Obvious differences are that the higher-spec raced item has deeper teeth and some swirly slots.
The bushed item is around 8.18mm overall width assembled, while the raced one is around 8.05mm. There's plenty of compliance in the plates between which these are clamped in the derailleur so there were no issues in swapping the two. If you were really picky you could shim the narrower one but I don't think this is necessary and the difference is probably due to tolerance stacking rather than any design intent.
The bolts that retain both are M5 and have a nominal 5mm diameter shank so no compatability issues here, while in use the deeper teeth of the ball raced item gave no issues.
It's also worth noting that the GRX item is showing a little wear to the trailing edges of the teeth - this is after around 4.5k miles and zero cleaning (yay for immersive chain waxing)..
A closer look at the bushed item below. When fitted the central boss / inner bush is sandwiched between the two cover plates, which are in turn held between the plates of the derailleur cage under action of the retaining bolt that passes through the centre of the side plates and inner bush.
The plain bush that's pressed into the centre of the jockey wheel is free to rotate about its static counterpart inside, as well as floating across it by a total of around 1.0mm. Note the witness marks on the inside of the RHS cover wheel (LHS is the same but can't be seen here), evidently resulting from the bush in the pulley coming into contact with it during use..
The big question is of course, did the new guide pulley cure the ghost-shifting issue? To an extent, but it's brought its own set of issues.
In use the drivetrain seems intangibly slick and refined with the new jockey wheel fitted - I can't put my finger on exactly how as it was always smooth and quiet with the waxed chain, but at a guess I suspect what I'm detecting is less vibration through the drivetrain due to the better tolerancing of the ball race v. the bush (which involves much more sliding friction and has the potential to chatter) while that sub-optimal interaction between the bush and side plates must have also been causing some degree of NVH too.
Changes in the drivetrain's shifting behaviour are more nuanced and harder to pin down. One obvious, very welcome difference is that shifts seem much more positive, immediate, evenly-spaced and predictable - unsurprising really when previously the jockey wheel was always likely to lag behind the movement of the RD cage by anything up to the1mm of float present in the bush arrangement.
Initially the shifting was faultless on a very sedate 10-15 mile shakedown ride until the very end, when it shifted unexpectedly on a climb just as I was arriving home and congratulating myself on finally having solved the problem
Since then the only issues I've experienced have been directly after a shift so are very likely due to my failure to get the RD exactly where it needs to be, as will always be a danger with non-indexed shifting. It's hard to gauge how precise a shift has been; unless you really get it wrong and cause the chain right in the middle of two sprockets (causing it to skip constantly between them) the only warning you get is a slight ticking from the back end.
After maybe 40-50 miles the bike's seen since making this change my conclusions are so far that:
- The floating guide pulley is problematic when run with non-indexed systems, and was probably never intended to be run with friction shifters.
- Previous problems of randomly shifting under light load well after the last shift was made appear to be gone.
- The remaining alignment problems appear less frequent, less severe and typically occur only directly after a shift.
- It's possible that the ongoing problems are simply par for the course with friction shifting, or may indicate that there's a secondary factor at play such as misalignment due to the poor flatness of the RD mating face on the frame's dropout.
I also tried the shifter in indexed mode and once more encountered the familiar situation of perfect behaviour for one half of the cassette before double-shifting once it had got to about the middle - yet again suggesting that each indexed position on the shifter is pulling slightly more cable than it should be.
Thinking about it a bit more, I don't think this could be due to hanger / alignment issues as any lack of squareness in the RD would serve to reduce the effect of the cable pull - meaning it would become hesitant to shift rather than the over-enthusiastic behaviour I'm experiencing.
So... back once more to friction it is.
This experience has taught me that ball-raced jockey wheels are a worthwhile upgrade so I'll be ordering a pair of these so that the top pulley currently fitted can go back on the CdF.
I'll continue to observe the bike's behaviour and try to better manage my own to minimise further shifting issues - I think a good start would be to go a little further on the lever travel once the shift has actually taken place to try and ensure that the pulley and sprocket are aligned; not just "close enough" to allow the shift to actually take place.
It's not perfect but seems like progress and may be as good as it's going to get.
In other news the Fuji's intended successor continues to lie disassembled and dormant at the homestead while I try to get my head around the myriad challenges to be negotiated before it's even close to a viable alternative.
In the meantime ongoing exclusive use of the Fuji has dulled my sensitivity to some of its shortcomings in its new urban home, although I'm not looking forward to the horrors of rim breaking in the wet, gritty reality of the winter commute.
On top of that I need to give the front rim / brake blocks a damned good clean as braking is extremely limited at this end - I think because of contamination from the synthetic grease used to coax the reluctant front tyre back to seating properly when it had to come off for a puncture repair a while ago.
Anyway, a few pictures from a sedate outing earlier in the week.. once again if you've made it to the end of this trivial wall of text, give yourself a biscuit.
Following the musings on the RD jockey wheels above I committed fully to the rabbithole, and after making assumptions upon consumption of lots of internet insunation and supposition came to the conclusion that broadly speaking, all recent Shimano jockey wheels are interchangeable as long as they have the same amount of teeth (or at least all 11t Shimano jockey wheels for 8-11sp setups are interchangeable).
This was despite practically zero supporting evidence being available in Shimano's own documentation...
Also missing from any sources I could find was confirmation whether the upper / guide pulleys on any given derailleur had lateral float. I found that available guide pulleys break down broadly into two formats - bushed and ball-raced.
The bushed pulleys are found at the lower end of Shimano's offerings and have an 8mm OD steel boss upon which the pulley runs via a press-fit plain bush. These are available both with and without lateral float. The ball-raced items are as they sound; containing a single sealed ball race which if designed correctly shouldn't permit any intentional lateral float.
So, the ball-raced examples seemed like a better bet both for certainty that they'd have no float as well as the obvious lower friction / smoother running nature of ball bearings over bushes.
Further digging revealed that the lowest-spec / cheapest current-spec ball raced pulleys are the Y3E998010 set - listed as fitting RDs from the last iterations of mid-high end 11s road, gravel and MTB groupsets including Ultegra R8000, GRX RX800 and Deore XT M8000.
The one (IIRC) exception to the above is the GRX RD-RX810 (intended for 2x setups) which runs a 13t tensioner pulley at the bottom as opposed to the 11t of all the others, but retains an 11t guide pulley at the top.
Despite the RX810's anomalous tensioner pulley it seemed a safe assumption that the 11t top / guide pulleys would be the same across all of these, so I snaffled the one present in the RD-RX810 fitted to my CdF 30 which continues to sit shamefully idle and incomplete as a result of the ongoing crankset debacle my wonky legs have foisted upon me...
Guide pulleys below - left: bushed item from RD-M592 9sp RD currently fitted to the Fuji, right: ball-raced item from the 11sp RD-RX810 fitted to the CdF:
Obvious differences are that the higher-spec raced item has deeper teeth and some swirly slots.
The bushed item is around 8.18mm overall width assembled, while the raced one is around 8.05mm. There's plenty of compliance in the plates between which these are clamped in the derailleur so there were no issues in swapping the two. If you were really picky you could shim the narrower one but I don't think this is necessary and the difference is probably due to tolerance stacking rather than any design intent.
The bolts that retain both are M5 and have a nominal 5mm diameter shank so no compatability issues here, while in use the deeper teeth of the ball raced item gave no issues.
It's also worth noting that the GRX item is showing a little wear to the trailing edges of the teeth - this is after around 4.5k miles and zero cleaning (yay for immersive chain waxing)..
A closer look at the bushed item below. When fitted the central boss / inner bush is sandwiched between the two cover plates, which are in turn held between the plates of the derailleur cage under action of the retaining bolt that passes through the centre of the side plates and inner bush.
The plain bush that's pressed into the centre of the jockey wheel is free to rotate about its static counterpart inside, as well as floating across it by a total of around 1.0mm. Note the witness marks on the inside of the RHS cover wheel (LHS is the same but can't be seen here), evidently resulting from the bush in the pulley coming into contact with it during use..
The big question is of course, did the new guide pulley cure the ghost-shifting issue? To an extent, but it's brought its own set of issues.
In use the drivetrain seems intangibly slick and refined with the new jockey wheel fitted - I can't put my finger on exactly how as it was always smooth and quiet with the waxed chain, but at a guess I suspect what I'm detecting is less vibration through the drivetrain due to the better tolerancing of the ball race v. the bush (which involves much more sliding friction and has the potential to chatter) while that sub-optimal interaction between the bush and side plates must have also been causing some degree of NVH too.
Changes in the drivetrain's shifting behaviour are more nuanced and harder to pin down. One obvious, very welcome difference is that shifts seem much more positive, immediate, evenly-spaced and predictable - unsurprising really when previously the jockey wheel was always likely to lag behind the movement of the RD cage by anything up to the1mm of float present in the bush arrangement.
Initially the shifting was faultless on a very sedate 10-15 mile shakedown ride until the very end, when it shifted unexpectedly on a climb just as I was arriving home and congratulating myself on finally having solved the problem
Since then the only issues I've experienced have been directly after a shift so are very likely due to my failure to get the RD exactly where it needs to be, as will always be a danger with non-indexed shifting. It's hard to gauge how precise a shift has been; unless you really get it wrong and cause the chain right in the middle of two sprockets (causing it to skip constantly between them) the only warning you get is a slight ticking from the back end.
After maybe 40-50 miles the bike's seen since making this change my conclusions are so far that:
- The floating guide pulley is problematic when run with non-indexed systems, and was probably never intended to be run with friction shifters.
- Previous problems of randomly shifting under light load well after the last shift was made appear to be gone.
- The remaining alignment problems appear less frequent, less severe and typically occur only directly after a shift.
- It's possible that the ongoing problems are simply par for the course with friction shifting, or may indicate that there's a secondary factor at play such as misalignment due to the poor flatness of the RD mating face on the frame's dropout.
I also tried the shifter in indexed mode and once more encountered the familiar situation of perfect behaviour for one half of the cassette before double-shifting once it had got to about the middle - yet again suggesting that each indexed position on the shifter is pulling slightly more cable than it should be.
Thinking about it a bit more, I don't think this could be due to hanger / alignment issues as any lack of squareness in the RD would serve to reduce the effect of the cable pull - meaning it would become hesitant to shift rather than the over-enthusiastic behaviour I'm experiencing.
So... back once more to friction it is.
This experience has taught me that ball-raced jockey wheels are a worthwhile upgrade so I'll be ordering a pair of these so that the top pulley currently fitted can go back on the CdF.
I'll continue to observe the bike's behaviour and try to better manage my own to minimise further shifting issues - I think a good start would be to go a little further on the lever travel once the shift has actually taken place to try and ensure that the pulley and sprocket are aligned; not just "close enough" to allow the shift to actually take place.
It's not perfect but seems like progress and may be as good as it's going to get.
In other news the Fuji's intended successor continues to lie disassembled and dormant at the homestead while I try to get my head around the myriad challenges to be negotiated before it's even close to a viable alternative.
In the meantime ongoing exclusive use of the Fuji has dulled my sensitivity to some of its shortcomings in its new urban home, although I'm not looking forward to the horrors of rim breaking in the wet, gritty reality of the winter commute.
On top of that I need to give the front rim / brake blocks a damned good clean as braking is extremely limited at this end - I think because of contamination from the synthetic grease used to coax the reluctant front tyre back to seating properly when it had to come off for a puncture repair a while ago.
Anyway, a few pictures from a sedate outing earlier in the week.. once again if you've made it to the end of this trivial wall of text, give yourself a biscuit.
Last edited:
Another exercise in tedium brought to you in association with oversharing with Wafter..
Following the relative success of fitting the RD guide pulley pinched from the CdF I put my hand in my pocket for a complete set; discovered at a decent price and subsequently collected from my local Halfords.
I continue to love Shimano's new packaging - placcy-free, eminently recyclable with nice quant / understated aesthetics
Replacement and original pulleys..
Originals showing the bearing arrangements - a plain, press-fit bush in the top one and naff-all in the bottom:
The ball bearing fitted to the replacement pulley (both have this setup):
New and 4.5k-mile old pulley from the CdF:
The new pulleys apparently went on without issue, however it later transpired that the tension pulley was fouling ever-so slightly on the inexplicibly folder-over edge of the RD's inside cage - not sure what this is even there for, but this might be the reason the pulley that came off is marked as "narrow"..
For now the original has gone back on while I figure out how to address this problem. Ideally I want to fit the replacement as the original must be pretty inefficient due to the friction between the bush / wheel and cover / wheel; judging by the witness marks on the inside.
Options appear to be:
- Shim the cage: least invasive / most reversible but splays cage open a little which isn't ideal.
- Bend or file down the cage: pretty invasive and irreversible; will damage finish and potentially leave open to corrosion - not keen.
- Freestyle some material out of the wheel: potentially difficuly to do well due to access / the area it needs to be removed from.
- Just fit the bloody thing and let it get on with it: While not ideal it would at least ensure consistant material removal in the correct place.
I'm also slightly tempted to tape a bit of abrasive paper to the offending area of the RD and run the pulley like that for a while so that it has some running clearance when the paper is removed.. Nothing's ever bloody simple, is it?
As it stands the shifting remains markedly improved if not ideal and it's still caught me out a few times. I'm pretty convinced this is now just the foibles of friction shifting; proving themselves to be a pain in city traffic where regular, quick, instinctive shifting is king and there's often limited time to operate the lever slowly whilst feeling for the optimum position - something that when allowed does seem to reduce the amount of issues encountered.
In other news yesterday the bike greeted me with a flat rear as I was aiming to leave - bringing fresh fun in a tiny, beige-carpetted flat and a lack of desire to go out in the cold. I managed OK though and it turned out to be a fragment of glass that'd probably worked it's way through the tyre over time - now at least identified and removed.
The rear tyre is in a pretty bad state; unsurprisingly given the life it's had. When I got the bike this was fitted to the front; being swapped to the rear after 700 miles of ownership when the original wore out.
Since then it's done a further 4k-ish miles and is now clearly worn - although perhaps not yet ready for the bin as some of the areas of damage in the centre of the tread revealed a cross-section of the remaining rubber, with perhaps 0.5mm of tread left. The sidewall is noticeably degraded but the plys seem intact so I'm not overly concerned about it failing (which is what wrote the original rear off, although it was also worn through to the puncture-resistant layer in places).
I reckon I'll get maybe another month or two's use out of it, then the newish Schwalbe Delta Cruiser on the front will be swapped to the back and the new example I have queued up fitted to the front. Thankfully the one that's on there currently doesn't appear to have cracked any more...
All this raises "interesting" questions about the distance the bike had covered before I bought it. The chain was about 0.25% worn and based on the wear characteristics of the second chain fitted this would suggest maybe 2-2.5k miles covered; however it was oiled, full of grit and generally poorly maintained so I'd expect it took fewer miles to have reached this point.
Conversely the once-front-now-rear tyre has done 4k miles in my ownership (plus 700 on the front in addition to whatever distance it covered before I bought the bike). So, even if we assume that no wear occurs on the front and that a tyre lasts 4.5k miles on the rear, this would suggest that the bike had covered maybe 4k miles before I bought it...
While pissing about with the back wheel I also noticed that the relatively-recently-fitted rear brake pads have worn unevenly - not sure why but I find myself often having to mess about with the brake arm return springs to balance everything out - evidently this had become an issue again, causing the LH pad to engage the rim earlier than the right; causing more wear on this side.
I've now pushed it back the other way in an effort to balance out the wear, for what that's worth. The cheapo Lifeline pads fitted to the rear don't seem to be lasting as well as the original Tektro items on the front, but I can't complain given what I paid for them.
Speaking of braking, the front brakes were stripped recently, the rims cleaned again with isopropanol and the contact faces of the pads sanded to remove any contamination (and the fair bit of ally residue present) in an effort to improve their terrible performance.
After paying a bit more attention I noticed that the braking issue isn't due to contamination as first thought and actually due to the end of the cable noodle bottoming out on the face of the opposite brake arm when the cable's pulled... eager to wring the last out of the pads that are fitted I'll pack them out with some M6 washers once I get the opportunity to grab some from the homestead.
I also had to brutalise the seatpost tube clamp again yesterday as the saddle had gradually crept down to a point where it was conspicuously sub-optimal. I still rue the day I dithered on the £10 Salsa clamp on ebay, since they're now basically unattainable unless you want a crap new one or are prepared to pay well over the odds..
Ultimately much of the above has helped to cement my resolve to replace the Fuji with something more appropriate for the use it's now seeing. As much as I love it, I won't miss the need to baby the gear changes or the sudden, unexpected shifts in reward for not doing this. Nor will I miss the ongoing need to fettle the brakes to account for pad wear - be that just general adjustment to account for the increased lever throw that comes with normal wear, or constantly having to tweak the springs to try and keep wear even.
While it's been mercifully dry recently, I suspect I'll get another reminder of the superiority of discs the next time I have to stop suddenly in the wet.
I'll no doubt feel guilty for relegating the Fuji to a life if idleness back in the homestead's shed, however it will hopefully still prove of ocasional use to escape under more favourable conditions; it's shortcomings being far less of a problem on open rural roads
Following the relative success of fitting the RD guide pulley pinched from the CdF I put my hand in my pocket for a complete set; discovered at a decent price and subsequently collected from my local Halfords.
I continue to love Shimano's new packaging - placcy-free, eminently recyclable with nice quant / understated aesthetics
Replacement and original pulleys..
Originals showing the bearing arrangements - a plain, press-fit bush in the top one and naff-all in the bottom:
The ball bearing fitted to the replacement pulley (both have this setup):
New and 4.5k-mile old pulley from the CdF:
The new pulleys apparently went on without issue, however it later transpired that the tension pulley was fouling ever-so slightly on the inexplicibly folder-over edge of the RD's inside cage - not sure what this is even there for, but this might be the reason the pulley that came off is marked as "narrow"..
For now the original has gone back on while I figure out how to address this problem. Ideally I want to fit the replacement as the original must be pretty inefficient due to the friction between the bush / wheel and cover / wheel; judging by the witness marks on the inside.
Options appear to be:
- Shim the cage: least invasive / most reversible but splays cage open a little which isn't ideal.
- Bend or file down the cage: pretty invasive and irreversible; will damage finish and potentially leave open to corrosion - not keen.
- Freestyle some material out of the wheel: potentially difficuly to do well due to access / the area it needs to be removed from.
- Just fit the bloody thing and let it get on with it: While not ideal it would at least ensure consistant material removal in the correct place.
I'm also slightly tempted to tape a bit of abrasive paper to the offending area of the RD and run the pulley like that for a while so that it has some running clearance when the paper is removed.. Nothing's ever bloody simple, is it?
As it stands the shifting remains markedly improved if not ideal and it's still caught me out a few times. I'm pretty convinced this is now just the foibles of friction shifting; proving themselves to be a pain in city traffic where regular, quick, instinctive shifting is king and there's often limited time to operate the lever slowly whilst feeling for the optimum position - something that when allowed does seem to reduce the amount of issues encountered.
In other news yesterday the bike greeted me with a flat rear as I was aiming to leave - bringing fresh fun in a tiny, beige-carpetted flat and a lack of desire to go out in the cold. I managed OK though and it turned out to be a fragment of glass that'd probably worked it's way through the tyre over time - now at least identified and removed.
The rear tyre is in a pretty bad state; unsurprisingly given the life it's had. When I got the bike this was fitted to the front; being swapped to the rear after 700 miles of ownership when the original wore out.
Since then it's done a further 4k-ish miles and is now clearly worn - although perhaps not yet ready for the bin as some of the areas of damage in the centre of the tread revealed a cross-section of the remaining rubber, with perhaps 0.5mm of tread left. The sidewall is noticeably degraded but the plys seem intact so I'm not overly concerned about it failing (which is what wrote the original rear off, although it was also worn through to the puncture-resistant layer in places).
I reckon I'll get maybe another month or two's use out of it, then the newish Schwalbe Delta Cruiser on the front will be swapped to the back and the new example I have queued up fitted to the front. Thankfully the one that's on there currently doesn't appear to have cracked any more...
All this raises "interesting" questions about the distance the bike had covered before I bought it. The chain was about 0.25% worn and based on the wear characteristics of the second chain fitted this would suggest maybe 2-2.5k miles covered; however it was oiled, full of grit and generally poorly maintained so I'd expect it took fewer miles to have reached this point.
Conversely the once-front-now-rear tyre has done 4k miles in my ownership (plus 700 on the front in addition to whatever distance it covered before I bought the bike). So, even if we assume that no wear occurs on the front and that a tyre lasts 4.5k miles on the rear, this would suggest that the bike had covered maybe 4k miles before I bought it...
While pissing about with the back wheel I also noticed that the relatively-recently-fitted rear brake pads have worn unevenly - not sure why but I find myself often having to mess about with the brake arm return springs to balance everything out - evidently this had become an issue again, causing the LH pad to engage the rim earlier than the right; causing more wear on this side.
I've now pushed it back the other way in an effort to balance out the wear, for what that's worth. The cheapo Lifeline pads fitted to the rear don't seem to be lasting as well as the original Tektro items on the front, but I can't complain given what I paid for them.
Speaking of braking, the front brakes were stripped recently, the rims cleaned again with isopropanol and the contact faces of the pads sanded to remove any contamination (and the fair bit of ally residue present) in an effort to improve their terrible performance.
After paying a bit more attention I noticed that the braking issue isn't due to contamination as first thought and actually due to the end of the cable noodle bottoming out on the face of the opposite brake arm when the cable's pulled... eager to wring the last out of the pads that are fitted I'll pack them out with some M6 washers once I get the opportunity to grab some from the homestead.
I also had to brutalise the seatpost tube clamp again yesterday as the saddle had gradually crept down to a point where it was conspicuously sub-optimal. I still rue the day I dithered on the £10 Salsa clamp on ebay, since they're now basically unattainable unless you want a crap new one or are prepared to pay well over the odds..
Ultimately much of the above has helped to cement my resolve to replace the Fuji with something more appropriate for the use it's now seeing. As much as I love it, I won't miss the need to baby the gear changes or the sudden, unexpected shifts in reward for not doing this. Nor will I miss the ongoing need to fettle the brakes to account for pad wear - be that just general adjustment to account for the increased lever throw that comes with normal wear, or constantly having to tweak the springs to try and keep wear even.
While it's been mercifully dry recently, I suspect I'll get another reminder of the superiority of discs the next time I have to stop suddenly in the wet.
I'll no doubt feel guilty for relegating the Fuji to a life if idleness back in the homestead's shed, however it will hopefully still prove of ocasional use to escape under more favourable conditions; it's shortcomings being far less of a problem on open rural roads
