Stealth tax

[GrasB]

The only thing is ime GPS isn't accurate enough for this. There are enough roads which have the old & new roads running parallel or a local road with a barrier between the two so you have one with a 30 limit & 70 on the other. Certainly every GPS system I've used at some point has got confused as to which road I'm on. So you could well have cars 'randomly' being limited down to 30mph on a NSL road... that's a nice way to cause accidents!

 

[Rhythm Thief]

I've driven lorries with variable speed limiters. Sometimes I use it but mostly I don't bother, since I can judge how fast I'm going by the engine noise and the feel of the lorry, quite apart from looking at the speedo occasionally. Doing it manually keeps me more alert, I've found. But variable speed limiters can be useful - where I do use one is on single carriageway A roads which have an almost universally disregarded HGV speed limit of 40mph and it's very easy to find yourself being pushed above 40 by people behind you - and they're an instant answer to those people who say "I can't possibly obey the speed limit, it involves looking at my speedo occasionally". Oddly enough, that wasn't an argument anyone on Safespeed was ever willing to listen to, for some reason.

The limiting systems I've used involve pushing a button when you reach the speed you don't want to exceed. When you want to go faster again, you either floor the throttle or push the same button to turn it off. Very simple, not at all distracting and all the other controls work exactly as normal.

 

[thomas]

The only thing is ime GPS isn't accurate enough for this. There are enough roads which have the old & new roads running parallel or a local road with a barrier between the two so you have one with a 30 limit & 70 on the other. Certainly every GPS system I've used at some point has got confused as to which road I'm on. So you could well have cars 'randomly' being limited down to 30mph on a NSL road... that's a nice way to cause accidents!

That's one downside, but I'd also suggest that potentially there could be a substatintial cost involved in running such system....which would be initially where it'd fall down (even if it could work perfectly).

In Japan, the Nissan GTR is GPS limited to the top speed limit....but GPS recognises when you're on the track and takes the limiter off. But it isn't limited to individual road speed limits.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/22/nissan-gt-r-recognizes-tracks-via-gps-removes-speed-limiter/

 

[Rhythm Thief]

The only thing is ime GPS isn't accurate enough for this. There are enough roads which have the old & new roads running parallel or a local road with a barrier between the two so you have one with a 30 limit & 70 on the other. Certainly every GPS system I've used at some point has got confused as to which road I'm on. So you could well have cars 'randomly' being limited down to 30mph on a NSL road... that's a nice way to cause accidents!

Yes. I'm not in favour of externally controlled limiting, partly for this reason but mostly because it would do absolutely nothing to increase the sense of social responsibility a driver should feel. The reason I don't speed is not because I might get caught doing so, but because I know it's an antisocial thing to do. That's the attitude we need to try and engender in drivers, although how we do that is a mystery to me.

 

[Davidc]

The OP was suggesting that speeding fines were a stealth tax. The number of strategies for avoiding speeding outlined here suggest ever more forcefully that it's just a tax on stupidity!

I use both my speed limiter and cruise control, but would like them tied into a GPS with a speed limit database, which can reset them for me. If the GPS gets it wrong then I can override them in a fraction of a second.

 

[steve52]

i would be with u david but for the fact that society is failing in so many other areas, and if we dont demand honour and honesty from those at the top and demande payment and reconpence when there not, whats th point of worrying about the little things?

 

[snorri]

I wasn't suggesting hidden police cars, just police cars driving around.

Just driving around is what they would be doing most of the time, adding to road traffic volume, noise and pollution. Along with the costs manning and purchasing vehicles, this sounds like an expensive and inefficient way of attempting to improve road safety. The more monitoring handed over to machinery the better.

 

[GrasB]

That's one downside, but I'd also suggest that potentially there could be a substatintial cost involved in running such system....which would be initially where it'd fall down (even if it could work perfectly).

In Japan, the Nissan GTR is GPS limited to the top speed limit....but GPS recognises when you're on the track and takes the limiter off. But it isn't limited to individual road speed limits.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/12/22/nissan-gt-r-recognizes-tracks-via-gps-removes-speed-limiter/

On or off track is fairly easy to do, you're talking about a large target zone, which may well be measured in miles even with a track complex with 'local' roads around it you're talking well over 30m separation which is more than enough space for a GPS to be accurate is positioning the car on-track/road. I regularly cycle & drive down a pair of roads with between 3 & 15m separating them, one is an NSL the other is somewhere between 20 & 40mph. Most times I go down those roads with my satnav on for a short period it thinks I'm on the wrong road.

 

[thomas]

On or off track is fairly easy to do, you're talking about a large target zone, which may well be measured in miles even with a track complex with 'local' roads around it you're talking well over 30m separation which is more than enough space for a GPS to be accurate is positioning the car on-track/road. I regularly cycle & drive down a pair of roads with between 3 & 15m separating them, one is an NSL the other is somewhere between 20 & 40mph. Most times I go down those roads with my satnav on for a short period it thinks I'm on the wrong road.

Sorry bit of misunderstanding! I don't actually think it should be implemented! I was just saying that type of technology is the only way to guarantee no speeding (if it always worked) and mentioned that some others in the thread had mentioned that....as that's what I assumed people meant by speed limiters, rather than "not cruise control, the other one!

I just showed the GTR because it's a pretty cool car and some form of GPS speed limiting is possible (eg. max of 70mph for us). Obviously, it's probably less likely that a nissan micra would need the GPS technology encase it went on a track .

My point for most of this thread has been there are times when I don't think speeding is that much of a problem (such as on quiet motorways, in moderation), but outside schools in a 30mph or 20mph zone it isn't acceptable, but if someone for a split second his 1mph over it isn't the end of the world if they're paying attention to everything.

I certainly wouldn't want to drive a car which was limited to 70mph, or limited by GPS to each individual speed limit. I think that it (in the long term) will be better to educate people why not to speed and drive at a sensible speed, so that people choose not to do it...rather than just forcing people not to.

 

[MacB]

The only thing is ime GPS isn't accurate enough for this. There are enough roads which have the old & new roads running parallel or a local road with a barrier between the two so you have one with a 30 limit & 70 on the other. Certainly every GPS system I've used at some point has got confused as to which road I'm on. So you could well have cars 'randomly' being limited down to 30mph on a NSL road... that's a nice way to cause accidents!

The solution to that is localised transmitters on speed signs and a black box style receiver in each car. You would actually need less speed signs than we have already. They'd only be required when there was a change in the speed limit. Basically you pass a 30 sign and that's now your top speed until you pass a sign saying otherwise. If you wanted it taken further and remote access to limiting allowed then the signs would need to be more numerous and networked in. But I'd suggest the basic limiting transmitters as stand alone, static. You can add in additional solutions for motorways and busy roads.

 

[GrasB]

MacB, so if you have a transmitter break & you're stuck at 20 or 30mph on a NSL road, or you can do 60 or 70 in a 30 limit great.

 

[Rhythm Thief]

Look at lorries on the motorway, limited to 56 and tailgating each other because their limiters are set very slightly differently. Now multiply that problem - and tailgating is arguably as dangerous as speeding - and apply it to every vehicle on the road in every speed limit. There's one problem with compulsory limiters.

 

[MacB]

MacB, so if you have a transmitter break & you're stuck at 20 or 30mph on a NSL road, or you can do 60 or 70 in a 30 limit great.

Hey, I'm sure there would be the odd problem, but would it be a big enough problem to not do it?

 

[thomas]

MacB, so if you have a transmitter break & you're stuck at 20 or 30mph on a NSL road, or you can do 60 or 70 in a 30 limit great.

The latter would be less of a problem, as we can already do that . I do agree with you that it's a silly and unnecessary idea.

Hey, I'm sure there would be the odd problem, but would it be a big enough problem to not do it?

Any idea how much it would cost? Millions upon millions of pounds. And the system would no doubt fail, as well as already being completely impractical.

If you want systems like this, then you'll need more systems to cover:

• Drink driving (breathalyser every time you drive)
• Some type of mobile phone blocking system
• sensors which disallow tailgating
• controls so the car automatically stops for red lights, zebra crossings, etc.
• sensors so that cars give cyclists the same space as when overtaking a car
• blah blah blah....

 

[MacB]

Any idea how much it would cost? Millions upon millions of pounds. And the system would no doubt fail, as well as already being completely impractical.

If you want systems like this, then you'll need more systems to cover:

• Drink driving (breathalyser every time you drive)
• Some type of mobile phone blocking system
• sensors which disallow tailgating
• controls so the car automatically stops for red lights, zebra crossings, etc.
• sensors so that cars give cyclists the same space as when overtaking a car
• blah blah blah....

Lot of assumptions and very short on facts there, explain why it would be so expensive, the technology already exists? Add to new cars and retrofit to old, at car owners expense. You could even insist that the whole thing is manufactured in the uk, there's an idea! So general expense would be fitting of transmitters to speed signs.

Why is it completely impractical and why would, tried and tested technology, be so prone to failure?