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CXRAndy

Guru
Location
Lincs
Reflective post Tommy, some good info. Shame you wont continue with bkool NC:sad:

I would to point out about the starting with either Bkool or Zwift races. These are generally sprint types, less than an hour, criterium like. You do go hard from the start, it gives such a big advantage and once in a group the draft affect is so vital to continue to break away from chasing riders. Physically, it s easier to build into a pace(my Zwift chaingang yesterday for example) Bkool and Zwift probably slightly over egg the draft speed, but in real races the same type of difficulty arises for the lone rider who gets dropped from the pack, its nearly impossible to get back on once a 5 second gap appears.
 

<Tommy>

Illegitimi non carborundum
Location
Camden, London
Some great posts appearing the last couple of days, so I thought I'd throw my hat in the ring.

We come from a great nation of cheaters, and as Sky have shown us, a couple of antihistamine injections and a few extra toots on your inhaler go a long way towards dominance in your field. Either ride the cup on your magical Pro or send it to me and save me the time and effort it is taking me to mount a Honda Fireblade on my turbo.

I also appreciate that the above posts are credible, valid entires, and mine is just a flippant crock of BS, I just felt a bit left behind....like my cycling.

:laugh:
 
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<Tommy>

Illegitimi non carborundum
Location
Camden, London
Tommy, I was looking at Pauls time against your ride. I actually watched Paul live. He was having a poor day with his average way down whilst climbing the long hill, around 300w(bkool) . You climbed at your lets say normal- ish pace 350W. That is why you were so far ahead. You weigh roughly the same. Have you compared your time to AAAC? He was several minutes ahead of Paul that day aswell

It’s possible mate. I bury myself on that stage and that’s the main frustration, in the sense that the lines are blurred between me and my fairy dust (that sounds a lot more camp than I meant it to but I’m sticking with it! :girldance:)

I’m not bowing out just yet. But I need to put in times that aren’t up for debate. The fact you and others have put in such blistering times can only be good for the team anyhow! :okay:
 

bridgy

Legendary Member
Location
Cheddar
@gbrown can I propose a slight change to how we start the handicap race on Tuesday so that we can practice starting in the way it will be done in the NC?

Basically, the plan will be for everyone to join during the warmup, but keep pedalling on the line until their allotted start time - then stop pedalling and start as soon as it allows you to move (for those not aware, if you don't stop pedalling when the countdown timer gets to zero you remain stuck on the line).

I think it could work quite well actually, as you can keep warming up while you wait and there's no scrabbling around with passwords etc at the last minute. Also, I think the times will still be usable because it will show a "moving time" as well as an overall one. Like anything though, it might take a little practice to get right!
 

Aleman

Knees are FUBAR but I don't like to mention it
Location
Blackpool UK
I've got to say that I feel similar to TT. The last week has seen BKool be very flattering to me, I took a KOM up a climb in BRVR (One that @keithaitch knows well IRL), I hammered the Handicap ride finishing first on the road, and then pulled a miracle ride out of the bag on the CG. On all apart from the last CG ride my HR was down on where I would expect it to be considering the watts I was supposed to be pushing out. The CG ride I was borderline red zone HR wise for pretty much the entire ride, and indeed there is a clear moment when @BILL S and @perswe dropped me when I had dipped into the red for just too long ... Which was followed by an insane period where I was putting out 520+ watts to catch them without going into the red too far for too long. Hand on heart, that's not me, I can't even claim it was @Whorty s encouragement, although it did stop me backing off which was what I wanted to.

It could have been the red mist of testosterone poisoning taking over, but I can't really believe that. The one thing I don't want to happen is to get in the team only to put in rides like week one of this current CG.
 

gbrown

Geoff on Bkool
Location
South Somerset
@gbrown can I propose a slight change to how we start the handicap race on Tuesday so that we can practice starting in the way it will be done in the NC?

Basically, the plan will be for everyone to join during the warmup, but keep pedalling on the line until their allotted start time - then stop pedalling and start as soon as it allows you to move (for those not aware, if you don't stop pedalling when the countdown timer gets to zero you remain stuck on the line).

I think it could work quite well actually, as you can keep warming up while you wait and there's no scrabbling around with passwords etc at the last minute. Also, I think the times will still be usable because it will show a "moving time" as well as an overall one. Like anything though, it might take a little practice to get right!

Happy for you to give it a try, if it doesn't work you can always leave the session and rejoin at your Start Time.

As you say, so long as the Moving Time is accurate I can correct for the Handicap and get an accurate comparison. Also, you will all have the same elapsed time and starting on your Start Time should be very accurate, which makes for a better chase as just a few seconds delay can mean you don't close up at the end.

You will have to sit pedalling for the warm up and your Start Time, which could be quite a long time, and it won't work if you join after the start, as you will immediately start moving.

Geoff
 

Del C

Veteran
Location
Horley
Hi Del. Thanks for taking the time to write such a thoughtful post mate! I’ll try and do it justice with one of my own...

Regarding your issues with BKOOL not being a fair representation of your abilities that wouldn’t surprise me at all to be honest mate. I think there are peoole in the league who are stronger in BKOOL than they are in the real world. And people who are stronger in the real world than BKOOL. There are definitley little tricks I can give you to try and improve you speed (including fedex’ing my turbo to you! ^_^). My first tip would be making sure you bike is ready for the turbo. You might not believe just how much difference having a good tyre on you rear wheel makes. And also having it at a good PSI. But it can make a difference of 50+ watts minimum in some cases. My favourite tyre is a conitinental gp4000. Is expensive but it grips the turbo better than any other tyre I’ve used. Others might have tyres they prefer more. It’s personal preference to some degree. But there are defo tyre that are much worse than others. Once you’ve got the tyre sorted we can look at your general set up. Do you use a powerful fan? And are you drinking enough water? These two factors also play a big role in performance. I’m not trying to tell you how to suck eggs but these things are easily overlooked and underrated sometimes.
Now you’ve got the bike sorted we can look at the sim. Firstly BKOOL and zwift are a complete joke really. I say this because of the way we start races in both cases. Have you ever seen a bike race where everyone is trying to hit such big watts right out of the gate?! I never have at any rate.... it’s mental! And takes a while to get used to, maybe you never will Del. But if you want to compete this is a hurdle everyone needs to try and get over. Basically for me this involved being realistic. On BKOOL there isn’t that many starters in any given race. So before the race, I’d target the people I thought I had a realistic chance of competing with. Out of the gate you have to go hard, but you also have to be honest with yourself and try and conserve some energy where you can. There’s no point in leading aaac and co for the first 200 meters, just to die a painful death and struggle for the next 20 miles. My own philosophy is to always want something for the last mile or two of the race. Don’t get me wrong, I want the tank to be completely empty by the finish line. But I don’t want to struggle over the line. I want to be able to smash through it (it doesn’t always happen like that...)
So...In one of your real world rides you probably start of relatively calmly. Then build pace and momentum as the ride goes on depending on how you’re feeling. On BKOOL you have to start hard. Your heart rate is going to max out if your not careful. Maybe even if you are careful. But if you’ve targeted the correct people they should be suffering at a similar rate as you. So hopefully you can slow your pace enough a mile or so after the start to try and calm your HR and reduce the power a bit. If you find yourself alone on the road. You can slow down to try and find a group/rider to sit with. Or if you’re behind your target group, then you might just have to settle on the race being an individual time trial. It doesn’t matter at all being last honestly. So long as you get something from it. Maybe the guys ahead are having a good day by their standards. Maybe your having a bad one. So all you can really do is find improvement. If it’s a course you’ve done before you can try and beat your previous time. If you haven’t just look to set a target time. And practice how you want to construct a race. It’s a good way of learning how to manage your energy over the said distance and terrain. And the time you set will then be your target next time.
Sometimes in BKOOL it can feel like walking though treacle. But then you might make a massive step forwards. It is really weird the way it works sometimes like that. But stick with it mate.
The best races are definitley the handicap races. Because you often get involved in little mini races and it really improves your ‘race craft’. It can be painful when people go bombing past. I have lots of memories of people going past me like I was standing still. I later discovered watching the replays that people put down massive watts on purpose when they’re passing you so you can’t latch on. But to you it seems like that’s there normal speed and it can be a gut punch if you let it!
I hope that helps. Don’t hesitate to ask a question no matter how basic it sounds. I do the whole time!

With my own issue is much more straight forward!

In that last stage I did, apart from the usual contenders of old, @peterob and @JJRobinson amongst others put in cracking times. And I’m really happy that more and more people seem to be joining the league now. Could I beat those times? Maybe, maybe not... I’m not sure it’s worth debating. But I am sure they both buried themselves to get those times. So now I’m supposed to take their place in the team with the bs time I put up? No thanks, not me. We all know BKOOL is a little inconsistent. But when I beat Bridgy by 6 minutes it’s too much for me... let Pep be Pep. I’m sure some people want to ‘win’ at any cost. But I’m not having people talk about me like that further down the line. It’s not that important to me. I’d rather be able to look people in the eye.

I’m going to try to put up some legitimate results if my turbo lets me. If not then I’ll have a great time cheering on the team.

Guys let’s just make sure whoever gets into the team gets there on merit. There’s so much competition for places it’s brilliant! I know you’re all being good friends and I’m really grateful for that honestly. It’s really a great thing to be part of. But enough now I think. Let’s just focus on the legitimate results :smile:

We might not win the nations cup. You never know, maybe we will. Be we definitely gonna have the most fun!!!

Thanks for the reply.

I can understand the principle. To be honest, I tend to stick to principles too, even when they don't always make sense to me or others, so I can see and accept where you're coming from on this. But I still hope you make the NC team!

Just a small update on me. Read your recommendations and decided to swap bikes on the turbo this morning. I put my best summer bike, a Guru Photon on the turbo, partly to compare against the bike that was on it (a Ridley Excalibur) and also because I've got Cont GP4000s on it - the Ridley has Cont 4 Seasons. Also, the Ridley has got a fairly cheap, entry level wheel that I've been using onto turbo, while the Guru has Shimano RS81s.

After writing my mega post last night the only course I could ride is my club's 10 mile TT course, as its on Bkool as a video ride. I beat my previous PB by 36 seconds, riding 26.00, and felt much stronger.

The Bkool route does feel similar to real life to me. But then maybe I'm stuck in the wrong sort of sweet spot on Bkool at the moment, where rides actually aren't that far out for me, and I need to get to the next level to start picking up some fairy dust!

Anyhow, thanks for the tips. I'm going to leave the Guru on for the next few rides to see whether there's definitely an improvement, or whether today was just a flukey one-off!
 

Del C

Veteran
Location
Horley
Some great posts appearing the last couple of days, so I thought I'd throw my hat in the ring.

We come from a great nation of cheaters, and as Sky have shown us, a couple of antihistamine injections and a few extra toots on your inhaler go a long way towards dominance in your field. Either ride the cup on your magical Pro or send it to me and save me the time and effort it is taking me to mount a Honda Fireblade on my turbo.

I also appreciate that the above posts are credible, valid entires, and mine is just a flippant crock of BS, I just felt a bit left behind....like my cycling.

Clearly this is a much better and more sensible reply to my post and @TurboTommy 's reply!

I've got a much clearer idea of the adjustments I need to make now! :laugh::becool:
 

Whorty

Gets free watts from the Atom ;)
Location
Wiltshire
It’s possible mate. I bury myself on that stage and that’s the main frustration, in the sense that the lines are blurred between me and my fairy dust (that sounds a lot more camp than I meant it to but I’m sticking with it! :girldance:)

I’m not bowing out just yet. But I need to put in times that aren’t up for debate. The fact you and others have put in such blistering times can only be good for the team anyhow! :okay:
The way I've always seen it with Bkool (or Zwift for that matter) is so long as I've worked really hard and crawled off the bike then that's all that really counts.
 

<Tommy>

Illegitimi non carborundum
Location
Camden, London
Thanks for the reply.

I can understand the principle. To be honest, I tend to stick to principles too, even when they don't always make sense to me or others, so I can see and accept where you're coming from on this. But I still hope you make the NC team!

Just a small update on me. Read your recommendations and decided to swap bikes on the turbo this morning. I put my best summer bike, a Guru Photon on the turbo, partly to compare against the bike that was on it (a Ridley Excalibur) and also because I've got Cont GP4000s on it - the Ridley has Cont 4 Seasons. Also, the Ridley has got a fairly cheap, entry level wheel that I've been using onto turbo, while the Guru has Shimano RS81s.

After writing my mega post last night the only course I could ride is my club's 10 mile TT course, as its on Bkool as a video ride. I beat my previous PB by 36 seconds, riding 26.00, and felt much stronger.

The Bkool route does feel similar to real life to me. But then maybe I'm stuck in the wrong sort of sweet spot on Bkool at the moment, where rides actually aren't that far out for me, and I need to get to the next level to start picking up some fairy dust!

Anyhow, thanks for the tips. I'm going to leave the Guru on for the next few rides to see whether there's definitely an improvement, or whether today was just a flukey one-off!

One other thing you post reminded me of Del. I have a wheel I use specifically for the turbo. The wheels nothing special. But the turbo will shred your tyre in a way the road never will. So it’s better to separate to two. It also means you don’t have to faff around swapping the quick release skewer everytime you switch from road to turbo.
 

bridgy

Legendary Member
Location
Cheddar
Happy for you to give it a try, if it doesn't work you can always leave the session and rejoin at your Start Time.

As you say, so long as the Moving Time is accurate I can correct for the Handicap and get an accurate comparison. Also, you will all have the same elapsed time and starting on your Start Time should be very accurate, which makes for a better chase as just a few seconds delay can mean you don't close up at the end.

You will have to sit pedalling for the warm up and your Start Time, which could be quite a long time, and it won't work if you join after the start, as you will immediately start moving.

Geoff
Yes, worth reiterating anyone planning to join this way must join during the warm up. It will mean a few minutes riding on the line until start time but personally I would probably be warming up during this time anyway. You don't have to pedal hard or anything - just enough to keep the rear wheel spinning. I would encourage anyone who thinks they may have half a chance of making the NC team to try joining in this way to get some practice at it and iron out any problems.
 

LBHIFI

Veteran
Location
Liseleje
That's the plan, provisional Handicaps were posted last Tuesday night, after the race. Do you have a time for Stouby-Sejet? Or someone you think you could start alongside for an initial run?

Anyone else planning on joining in that didn't have a handicap last week?

View attachment 392399

Geoff
I usually shift to my old Bkool pro when riding in BSim, which reads 15-25 watts too high, but given that this is a handicap race I won't bother, and keep my newer Bkool pro which is about 10 watts down. I would expect to be able to hold 280 real watts for that duration, so that will be 270 watt for the the stage.
I can't see the watts of riders who finished the stage in the league rankings, but I'm guessing 5 or 6 minutes handicap would be realistic?
 

BILL S

Guru
Location
London
@gbrown can I propose a slight change to how we start the handicap race on Tuesday so that we can practice starting in the way it will be done in the NC?

Basically, the plan will be for everyone to join during the warmup, but keep pedalling on the line until their allotted start time - then stop pedalling and start as soon as it allows you to move (for those not aware, if you don't stop pedalling when the countdown timer gets to zero you remain stuck on the line).

I think it could work quite well actually, as you can keep warming up while you wait and there's no scrabbling around with passwords etc at the last minute. Also, I think the times will still be usable because it will show a "moving time" as well as an overall one. Like anything though, it might take a little practice to get right!

I think this is a better way to do it after all the chaos of last week. Ok so it means I have to be warming up on the start line for 20 minutes or so but that's not a big deal and is a lot better than all the potential problems of doing it the other way. I guess it's ok to stop pedalling after the start a few seconds before your allotted start time so you can set off at the exact time. Is that correct?
 

bridgy

Legendary Member
Location
Cheddar
I've got to say that I feel similar to TT. The last week has seen BKool be very flattering to me, I took a KOM up a climb in BRVR (One that @keithaitch knows well IRL), I hammered the Handicap ride finishing first on the road, and then pulled a miracle ride out of the bag on the CG. On all apart from the last CG ride my HR was down on where I would expect it to be considering the watts I was supposed to be pushing out. The CG ride I was borderline red zone HR wise for pretty much the entire ride, and indeed there is a clear moment when @BILL S and @perswe dropped me when I had dipped into the red for just too long ... Which was followed by an insane period where I was putting out 520+ watts to catch them without going into the red too far for too long. Hand on heart, that's not me, I can't even claim it was @Whorty s encouragement, although it did stop me backing off which was what I wanted to.

It could have been the red mist of testosterone poisoning taking over, but I can't really believe that. The one thing I don't want to happen is to get in the team only to put in rides like week one of this current CG.
That's one of the problems - any trainer issues tend to be intermittent. Sometimes it even changes mid ride. Sometimes we've found that many people all get a speed/watts boost above their normal levels on a particular course (no idea why!). Remember, we're not the only ones getting these kind of results sometimes - I think it is universal in bkool. The problem is where the line is between unfairly excessive speed/watts boost and the normal variables everyone else gets. I don't want our team to go into the Nations Cup with any sort of unfair advantage, but have a look at some of the w/kg from leading riders in the Winter Cup - many of whom we'll be up against. I am not denying they are very strong riders and athletes (this is clear from their real life performance I have seen on Facebook and Strava). However, bkool is allowing them to get w/kg figures higher than Chris Froome can achieve.......
 

bridgy

Legendary Member
Location
Cheddar
I think this is a better way to do it after all the chaos of last week. Ok so it means I have to be warming up on the start line for 20 minutes or so but that's not a big deal and is a lot better than all the potential problems of doing it the other way. I guess it's ok to stop pedalling after the start a few seconds before your allotted start time so you can set off at the exact time. Is that correct?
Well, this is the sort of thing we need to practice! As long as you're not moving before your start time I would imagine it will be fine? So on that basis I suppose it would be ok to stop pedalling whenever you want as long as you don't start

P.S Of course, you don't have to join the warm up for the whole 10 miinutes either - as long as you're in the warm up at some point it will work, so you could join with just a minute of warm up left to go for example
 
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