Team Sky, Brailsford and doping

[thom]

You don't use it like that. You set trigger points and use the data to see if the trigger points are, well "triggered".

Once they are then you investigate a little deeper.

It's not dissimilar to what they have done in my field, albeit it's not there to catch cheaters per se.

That's kind of my point - to use it properly, you need to know and investigate more.
What I worry about is if the data is public, people will look at it and try to make conclusions without really knowing enough or having the ability to investigate more deeply through other means.

 

[ufkacbln]

That's kind of my point - to use it properly, you need to know and investigate more.
What I worry about is if the data is public, people will look at it and try to make conclusions without really knowing enough or having the ability to investigate more deeply through other means.

The problem is that if you don't release the data then it cannot be analysed either by professionals, scientists or researchers to establish base lines.

Many aspects of medicine use "normal limits" to assess where a particular result sits. Not necessarily a confirmation, but certainly an indication that further investigation of a disease process is appropriate. Ca Prostate is for instance regularly picked up by routine testing for a particular antigen. Further investigation can reveal benign, malignant or inflammatory conditions.

What is needed is to gain access to the data, establish those parameters for "normal riders" and then see how they work in practice.

Then and only then can it be used to indicate suspicious activity

 

[oldroadman]

The problem is that if you don't release the data then it cannot be analysed either by professionals, scientists or researchers to establish base lines.

Many aspects of medicine use "normal limits" to assess where a particular result sits. Not necessarily a confirmation, but certainly an indication that further investigation of a disease process is appropriate. Ca Prostate is for instance regularly picked up by routine testing for a particular antigen. Further investigation can reveal benign, malignant or inflammatory conditions.

What is needed is to gain access to the data, establish those parameters for "normal riders" and then see how they work in practice.

Then and only then can it be used to indicate suspicious activity

No such thing, there are very good riders, excellent riders, and winners. Oh, and non-finishers (aka a certain Luxembourger). The pro peloton is the world of genatic exception. A "median" rider does not win much, a winner does. So what do we want, a peloton of medians where anyone who excels is automatically suspect? No thanks.

 

[ColinJ]

No such thing, there are very good riders, excellent riders, and winners. Oh, and non-finishers (aka a certain Luxembourger). The pro peloton is the world of genatic exception. A "median" rider does not win much, a winner does. So what do we want, a peloton of medians where anyone who excels is automatically suspect? No thanks.

I reckon that natural athletic ability gives the genetic freaks an unfair advantage over the rest of us, so they should undergo DNA tests and receive lifetime bans if they are found to be 'genetically doped'! The rest of us can battle it out and the winners will then be those who try hardest!

 

[thom]

The problem is that if you don't release the data then it cannot be analysed either by professionals, scientists or researchers to establish base lines.

Many aspects of medicine use "normal limits" to assess where a particular result sits. Not necessarily a confirmation, but certainly an indication that further investigation of a disease process is appropriate. Ca Prostate is for instance regularly picked up by routine testing for a particular antigen. Further investigation can reveal benign, malignant or inflammatory conditions.

What is needed is to gain access to the data, establish those parameters for "normal riders" and then see how they work in practice.

Then and only then can it be used to indicate suspicious activity

Dude, you need to look at what I said before arguing against me. I'm in favour of the data being examined confidentially and scientifically by professionals with appropriate qualifications and ethical standards but in a context anonymity. It would be necessary to prove some linkage between signals in the power data and doping activity as a first step. It may be there is none and the data ought not be used at all - a proper scientific analysis necessarily allows that possibility.
I'm not in favour of the data being published as a witch-hunter's wet-dream.

 

[ufkacbln]

Dude, you need to look at what I said before arguing against me. I'm in favour of the data being examined confidentially and scientifically by professionals with appropriate qualifications and ethical standards but in a context anonymity. It would be necessary to prove some linkage between signals in the power data and doping activity as a first step. It may be there is none and the data ought not be used at all - a proper scientific analysis necessarily allows that possibility.
I'm not in favour of the data being published as a witch-hunter's wet-dream.

Not arguing against, just a slightly different angle, I have agreed with what you said..... establish baselines, and use them as indicators for further investigation

However after the problems of the last decade or so, there is a need to be transparent, and the problem with keeping the information under wraps is that this is in turn (to use your phrase) " a witch-hunter's wet-dream" as absence of data implies that it is being kept under wraps because there is something to hide.

 

[ufkacbln]

No such thing, there are very good riders, excellent riders, and winners. Oh, and non-finishers (aka a certain Luxembourger). The pro peloton is the world of genatic exception. A "median" rider does not win much, a winner does. So what do we want, a peloton of medians where anyone who excels is automatically suspect? No thanks.

Hence the reasons to investigate.

This has happened before when EPO was "undetectable" and the Haematocrit values were used to assess riders.

This varied for many reasons and the investigation sorts this out.

A sprinter will have a different ability to provide high power outputs for short periods, where as a climber will have a high power for longer periods of time.


That is also the reason why your assumption about "medians" is incorrect, That is why "normal riders" is in inverted commas and the suggestion that it would have to be seen to work in practice - there will probably be a "normal range" established, but then there outliers that establish an upper limit, and that is how it could work.

 

[thom]

However after the problems of the last decade or so, there is a need to be transparent, and the problem with keeping the information under wraps is that this is in turn (to use your phrase) " a witch-hunter's wet-dream" as absence of data implies that it is being kept under wraps because there is something to hide.

Blood passport info is all confidential right ? All doping tests get done anonymously and the part that would need to be established would be a connection between those doping tests and power readings. With power readings, there are so many situational variables that would effect performance (motivation, team instructions, weather, where you are in the peloton, par-cours to name but a few) that I expect only very sophisticated analysis could show anything useful, if at all.

 

[ufkacbln]

Which all needs to be proved or disproved.

It is already the subject of conjecture, used to make allegations and insinuations.

If the data is analysed and shows that it can be utilised to identify riders that are significantly different to the others that investigation is required then there is another weapon that can be used in anti-doping

If when used in practice there are no links then it stops the conjecture.

However as long as we have accusations that rider X's performance could only be achieved by doping the problem will continue

 

[ufkacbln]

I reckon that natural athletic ability gives the genetic freaks an unfair advantage over the rest of us, so they should undergo DNA tests and receive lifetime bans if they are found to be 'genetically doped'! The rest of us can battle it out and the winners will then be those who try hardest!

Genetic doping is a current issue!

The possibility of gene doping, defined as the transfer of nucleic acid sequences and/or the use of normal or genetically modified cells to enhance sport performance, is a real concern in sports medicine. The abuse of knowledge and techniques gained in the area of gene therapy is a form of doping, and is prohibited for competitive athletes. As yet there is no conclusive evidence that that gene doping has been practiced in sport. However, given that gene therapy techniques improve continuously, the likelihood of abuse will increase.

Gene doping: an overview and current implications for athletes (Br J Sports Med doi:10.1136/bjsports-2012-091288)

 

[ColinJ]

Genetic doping is a current issue!

Flipping heck, what next - male athletes pretending to be female so they can enter women's events? Oh, hang on, that has been done too - example!

 

[ufkacbln]

Flipping heck, what next - male athletes pretending to be female so they can enter women's events? Oh, hang on, that has been done too - example!

Suggesting that Victoria Pendleton or Laura Trott is a man may not be popular?

 

[oldroadman]

Flipping heck, what next - male athletes pretending to be female so they can enter women's events? Oh, hang on, that has been done too - example!

Looking around women's sport a few years ago there were a few women who must have been close to the chromosome edge....and there are still one or two who have a very masculine type of build, but stil, that's the world of genetic exception.

 

[albion]

I wonder if Kenya's popularity as an athletes training base will wane a bit now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/21771213

It's mildly amazing how many go away to return bigger and better.

 

[oldroadman]

I wonder if Kenya's popularity as an athletes training base will wane a bit now.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/21771213

It's mildly amazing how many go away to return bigger and better.

They should set one up in Jamaica too, if only to stop the accusations and suspiscions flying around. The a proper and thorough out of competition one for tennis (rich sport so easily afforded). I'll just wait to hear all the whining about "rigts to privacy" being bandied about, probably from the people who need to be heavily checked. ADAMS (the whereabouts system) is coming to you soon, guys and gals of the grunting classes.