The 'need' to indicate - ?

[figbat]

During my numerous IAM driving assessments I was advised consistently that you only need to indicate if it will help another road user to understand your intent and react accordingly. Doing stuff 'automatically' means you are disengaged from actively scanning, predicting and managing your situation on the road. If you indicate without needing to then one day you may do so and cause confusion.

Example from me - there is a junction I use daily....

I approach from the top-left and turn left into Halfpenny Lane. The A417 is the main road, the other roads are give way (the road that heads SW from the junction is a track that is rarely used). To compound it, the junction is on the brow of a hill meaning visibility is limited. When I approach this junction I indicate differently almost every day based on what is going on. If there is traffic waiting to emerge from Westfield Road I don't indicate until very late, sometimes not at all. This is because I have seen cars indicate at an earlier ('normal', automatic) distance and cars on Westfield Road assume they are turning down there and pull out leading to near misses. If I approach and all roads are clear, but someone is following me, I'll indicate earlier so the person behind knows my plans.

Equally when turning right from Halfpenny Lane I won't assume anybody is turning anywhere until they actually turn. As my motorcycle instructor told me many years ago, an indicator showing on a vehicle means nothing more than it is working.

 

[sheddy]

I’ll happily indicate to no one, rather than risk crashing with a stealth motorist who has pulled a totally insane manoeuvre.

With more silent EVs on the road one can’t be too careful.

 

[wafter]

What is mandatory is making appropriate observations before starting your manoevre. If you see that there's no one there and decide to indicate anyway - no harm is done. In fact as you are fallible it might still be useful as you may have missed someone. If you decide not to indicate, again no problem, as you have looked and confirmed that there is no need.

But what could become a problem is getting into an automatic habit of sticking the indicator on without making proper observations and hoping that by indicating all will be OK.

You need to get sufficient info to get to the decision point where you know whether or not anyone will see. What you decide to do if there's no one there is up to you.

Absolutely this. As per @T4tomo's post I was also taught (by an ex-traffic copper circa 2000) that I should only signal when there's someone there to appreciate it; on the basis that checking to see if you have an audience promotes greater observation and situational awareness than just slipping into the habit of signalling regardless and assuming this will see you right.

I have modified this slightly to try to account for situations where someone might appear while I'm mid-manouver (such as when entering a roundabout where I can't see all of the other entry points) by signalling pre-emptively, but again this requires a degree of thought and observation rather than habit..

 

[figbat]

I’ll happily indicate to no one, rather than risk crashing with a stealth motorist who has pulled a totally insane manoeuvre.

And there's the rub. There should be no "stealth" motorists. I will also indicate to nobody if there is a chance somebody will appear (and that could be pedestrians and cyclists as well as "motorists"), but if it's clear there is nobody around and nobody will appear then no indication needed.

 

[presta]

My driving instructor said don't indicate if it's obvious what you're doing, as it will just confuse people. He didn't define what is and isn't obvious.

I tend to indicate as habit unless there's a specific reason not to. For example, if turning left just after another junction where an early signal could mislead someone into pulling out. Got beeped by someone behind because I then indicated "late" as he saw it but it was better than t-boning the car waiting at the junction before my lay-by.

On the bike I am reticent about signalling left as it tends to encourage some clown behind to overtake then turn the corner beside me.

So I am of the "always indicate unless.." camp rather than "avoid indicating unless.." which seems to be the implied rule for self styled "advanced drivers" who then avoid indicating for mere pedestrians

The entrance to my estate is a right turn off a main road, and there are usually parked cars on the main road opposite. If I indicate early I risk it being mistaken for a signal to overtake, if I wait until I'm already alongside the parked cars I risk that it's too late.

 

[roadrash]

I dont agree with the dont indicate if there is no one to benefit from it , it does not mean that you havn't looked properly if you indicate after deciding no one will benefit from it , to me it is a case of ... i have looked properly , i dont see anyone who would benefit from my indicating but i will indicate anyway as it causes no problem and simply because i am human , it is possible that i made a mistake or another vehicle may appear quickly than i anticipated,
In my oppinion, anyone who doesnt indicate there intentions thinks they are infallible, they are not

 

[All uphill]

During my numerous IAM driving assessments I was advised consistently that you only need to indicate if it will help another road user to understand your intent and react accordingly. Doing stuff 'automatically' means you are disengaged from actively scanning, predicting and managing your situation on the road. If you indicate without needing to then one day you may do so and cause confusion.

Example from me - there is a junction I use daily....
View attachment 621000
I approach from the top-left and turn left into Halfpenny Lane. The A417 is the main road, the other roads are give way (the road that heads SW from the junction is a track that is rarely used). To compound it, the junction is on the brow of a hill meaning visibility is limited. When I approach this junction I indicate differently almost every day based on what is going on. If there is traffic waiting to emerge from Westfield Road I don't indicate until very late, sometimes not at all. This is because I have seen cars indicate at an earlier ('normal', automatic) distance and cars on Westfield Road assume they are turning down there and pull out leading to near misses. If I approach and all roads are clear, but someone is following me, I'll indicate earlier so the person behind knows my plans.

Equally when turning right from Halfpenny Lane I won't assume anybody is turning anywhere until they actually turn. As my motorcycle instructor told me many years ago, an indicator showing on a vehicle means nothing more than it is working.

The words that stand out to me from this @figbat are "roaduser".

I too was told only to signal if there is another road user...
What that excludes are pedestrians, some of whom may be helped by clear signals. I challenged my tutor and he did accept that "roaduser" is too limited a term and marginalised the most vulnerable.

 

[cougie uk]

As others - my driving instructor told me to indicate where it is of use to other people. So I indicate pretty much all of the time. Obviously you still check before you do though. I'd rather indicate more than strictly needed just in case there is someone I've not seen that might want to know where I'm going.

And whilst we are on about indicating - is it just me or are some indicators much less bright/obvious than they used to be ?

 

[vickster]

As others - my driving instructor told me to indicate where it is of use to other people. So I indicate pretty much all of the time. Obviously you still check before you do though. I'd rather indicate more than strictly needed just in case there is someone I've not seen that might want to know where I'm going.

And whilst we are on about indicating - is it just me or are some indicators much less bright/obvious than they used to be ?

Not just you as they are part of/next to those awful uber bright blinding LED lights (especially SUVs)

 

[cougie uk]

Not just you as they are part of/next to those awful uber bright blinding LED lights (especially SUVs)

Yes that's it - the indicator is on the inside of those driving lights - not on the extreme edge like they used to be. Not as noticeable as they should be. Bring back the olden days I say !

 

[Drago]

Some years back, a colleague and I had a discussion with our guv'nor about whether when driving you need to indicate when there's no other traffic about. We were / are of the view that it should be an 'automatic habit' regardless of traffic conditions. He felt that there wasn't any point, suggesting that it needed concious effort to decide whether to indicate or not.
As my driving instructor hammered into me in 1972 - 'mirror, signal, manoever - !'
Your thoughts - !

The problem of developing an automatic habit is that indicating quickly becomes a substitute for looking, which is far, far worse. Virtually no one mirror-signal-manoeuvers, prefferring instead to simply wang on the indicators. You do it most of the time, without a doubt, because you've not been taught the correct drills to overcome the human tendency to be lazy.

Im an elderly police class 1 driver, and ill stick to the system written in the blood of less careful drivers. Advanced drivers of all stripe have a lower 'accident' rate than the typical, unskilled, barely trained car driver.

This is why insurers give discounts to advanced drivers, but not to those who simply follow the advice of their unskilled chums who think automatically doing stuff somehow makes them safer!

 

[ClichéGuevara]

As others - my driving instructor told me to indicate where it is of use to other people. So I indicate pretty much all of the time. Obviously you still check before you do though. I'd rather indicate more than strictly needed just in case there is someone I've not seen that might want to know where I'm going.

And whilst we are on about indicating - is it just me or are some indicators much less bright/obvious than they used to be ?

It's often useful to me and my passengers if I indicate, as they can then shout "Nooooo RIGHT not left ya noddy"

 

[ClichéGuevara]

The problem of developing an automatic habit is that indicating quickly becomes a substitute for looking, which is far, far worse. Virtually no one mirror-signal-manoeuvers, prefferring instead to simply wang on the indicators. You do it most of the time, without a doubt, because you've not been taught the correct drills to overcome the human tendency to be lazy.

Im an elderly police class 1 driver, and ill stick to the system written in the blood of less careful drivers. Advanced drivers of all stripe have a lower 'accident' rate than the typical, unskilled, barely trained car driver.

This is why insurers give discounts to advanced drivers, but not to those who simply follow the advice of their unskilled chums who think automatically doing stuff somehow makes them safer!

I've seen too many that follow the 'MSM' approach, but seem to think putting the indicator on gives them some sort of right to then follow through with the manoeuvre, no matter what they saw in their mirror.

I was also in a car for a test, and the driver was arguing that they had used their mirror, and the examiner pointed out that the way they used it was more to see what they'd just run over, than it was to see what they need to be aware of.

 

[Fab Foodie]

I just stick two fingers up to everybody and then pedal like hell.....

 

[ebikeerwidnes]

Coming home, when I get onto the estate I have to turn into what the SatNav calls "The Road"

At that point there are always cars parked all over the place - hence a cra coming up the road could sometimes be on the 'wrong' side of the road in order to get past a parked car.
In addition the corner is a sharp 90 degrees and visibility of traffic coming up it is low
Hence I always signal early because if I leave it until I can see anyone coming up the road then by then I am turning the steering wheel and could really do without taking one hand off it to flick the indicator on

In general I tend to always signal anyway

an exception is in Runcorn when I am heading for the canal - I am going down a hill and turning sharp left - hence - I am braking quite heavily and taking my left hand (rear brake which I normally use (Yes - I know - but it has worked just fine for 50 years)) off so I am just using the front brake
The whole bike becomes unstable just as I need to turn - on a narrow but busy road
SO at that point I might not signal without a good reason - but if I know there is a car behind me I will signal quite early and then put my hand back on the bars to keep it stable