Truck hazard

[deptfordmarmoset]

Or, just get them to make lorries that can drive themselves safely as well.

Or, what the hell, why not have someone aboard with the principal responsibility for road safety?

 

[steveindenmark]

Deptford. Again you are assuming it is all the drivers fault. Do you really believe that cyclists don't make mistakes?

To balance the argument, maybe there should be something on the bike which makes it stop at red lights or it sneaking along the inside of lorries and buses. Something like a brain.
Steve

 

[theclaud]

the fact that they are fundamentally unsafe is down to the company, not the individual who is driving it. If they cant see, they can't see. End of. Short of getting out and having a look what can they do? even if they did that by the time they got back in there could be a cyclist there. no wonder they are hoping to be banned from London. TfL build a s*** infrastructure, haulage companies refuse to invest, but its the drivers and cyclists that suffer in consequences. from what I've read on transnet there is no malice towards cyclists, just the same frustrations we feel from a different perspective.

That's true and I don't dispute it. Had a truck driver opened a thread with "As truck drivers we are dismayed by the recent spate of fatalities and concerned about the dangers the vehicles we are responsible for driving present to cyclists and pedestrians. I'd just like you to know that we are doing the following things to raise this issue with those responsible for vehicle design and procurement, work patterns and schedules and driver training..." it would have been a different proposition. But he didn't, did he?

 

[steveindenmark]

Adrian, one is illegal and the other isn't.

Maybe not but that is where the brains part comes in.

Steve

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

Deptford. Again you are assuming it is all the drivers fault. Do you really believe that cyclists don't make mistakes?

To balance the argument, maybe there should be something on the bike which makes it stop at red lights or it sneaking along the inside of lorries and buses. Something like a brain.
Steve

I am not assuming anything of the kind. Much of my criticism is laid firmly in the hands of the construction industry as a whole. There is an enormously disproportionate death toll from their lorries and it can't be that it's the drivers alone. It's the drivers in their vehicles. Again, from the TfL report

HGVs are disproportionately involved in fatal pedal cycle collisions, with 53 per cent of pedal cycle fatalities between 2008 and 2012 involving direct conflict with a HGV. Following an apparent trend of tipper lorry involvement in collisions resulting in a cyclist fatality, a review of the 2011 data was undertaken. It was found that seven of the nine large goods vehicles involved in a fatal cyclist collision that year were construction vehicles.

Outside just about every building site around here there's a man, a banksman, whose responsibility is to ensure the safe access and egress from these sites. Now, if these vehicles were truly safe, would they really be paying someone to do that job? And if they need someone on site, how comes they don't need anyone anywhere else? The question of H&S (throughout the rest of the tipper truck's journey) is another area pointed to by the above mentioned report.

Even where drivers are under pressure to deliver and collect loads as quickly as possible along roads they quite possibly are not familiar with, and where they are under pressure to receive phone calls on hand-held mobiles whilst driving, accidents arising are not solely the fault of the drivers either in my view. And they can't all be phoning the missus.

 

[steveindenmark]

I have read that a few times but I cannot see where it says the drivers of the lorries were to blame for any of the accidents. In fact it does not say what or who was to blame.

Steve

 

[CopperCyclist]

Thanks for the advice, let me know how the horn would have prevented this
(snip)
or this
(snip)
or this
(snip)

Let me make it clear, if a cyclist has to use a horn then the truck driver is doing something wrong.

I think you have a point, but if argue it the other way round (ish). In your visits, if the cyclist had to use his horn, then clearly the driver is already in the wrong.

However, in the sort of accidents we are seeing in London it's can be an undertaking cyclist being squished. They may be able to use a horn to earn the truck they are undertaking, but obviously the best solution is to simply not undertake.

Responsibility is clearly needed both sides, and I don't cycle in a city with the same issues as London. I often feel very sorry when see videos of good drivers sat waiting to turn left at lights because a constant stream of cyclists on the left are refusing to yield, but equally stories of the other side of the coin (Putz for example) are horrific.

 

[deptfordmarmoset]

I have read that a few times but I cannot see where it says the drivers of the lorries were to blame for any of the accidents. In fact it does not say what or who was to blame.

Steve

And I cannot see where I've put the blame on drivers anywhere in this thread, apart from an implied responsibility for driving whilst using hand-held phones. That's why I responded to your claim that I was putting all the blame on the drivers. j

 

[buggi]

The brain part is where I assess the situation and make a judgment as to whether or not it is safe.

you might Adrian and obviously it has been safe or you wouldn't be here, but this doesn't mean everyone does it or even realises the danger. Or even assesses it and gets it right.

That's true and I don't dispute it. Had a truck driver opened a thread with "As truck drivers we are dismayed by the recent spate of fatalities and concerned about the dangers the vehicles we are responsible for driving present to cyclists and pedestrians. I'd just like you to know that we are doing the following things to raise this issue with those responsible for vehicle design and procurement, work patterns and schedules and driver training..." it would have been a different proposition. But he didn't, did he?

no he didn't but it doesn't mean they haven't. What he did do was suggest that we have something similar to a car horn. I don't think its a bad idea.
and why didn't you ask him? You might have got the response you hoped for and if you didn't, you could of asked him why they hadn't. You kinda missed a chance to open some really meaningful dialogue but instead the thread descended into the usual pattern of blame the truck driver rather than discuss the issues and how we can work together to resolve them. One of them said on truck net "i caught my hi viz vest on my guard rails, I'm worried that if a cyclist gets caught on them, they might get dragged under my wheels". Just a little example of (a) how concerned they are, (b) how we can be forewarned of things we might not have thought about if we open a sensible dialogue with them. TfL and the haulage companies are not helping us, they are too busy shouting at each other. Maybe the cyclists and the truck drivers could go some way to solving some of the issues if they started talking and listening to each other. And if they found common ground (which i think they would) then as a joint voice TfL and the haluage industry might have to start listening.

 

[steveindenmark]

It just happened to be a tipper truck as well.

When you see it on film it is hard to doubt that there are 2 sides to the story.

Even the other cyclist shook his head.

Steve

 

[buggi]

When you have responsibility for a toddler, you tell them the kettle is dangerous and to keep away from it. With an adult you expect them to know how to deal with the kettle safely.

yes you do... But everyone makes mistakes and some have not been told. I rode a bike for many years before finding out lorries had blind spots bcoz i simply did not hang out with other cyclists and, amazingly, it was never covered in my driving lessons/test . You are presuming that all cyclists have these conversations. I gave a team talk the other day and about 30 of the 35 drivers there didn't know. So if any of them happened to get on a bike they wouldn't have known. Some people ride bikes, they are not experienced cyclists.

 

[vickster]

But what should we aim for, toddlers or grown ups?

Depends if you are dealing with men or women

 

[Ganymede]

yes you do... But everyone makes mistakes and some have not been told. I rode a bike for many years before finding out lorries had blind spots bcoz i simply did not hang out with other cyclists and, amazingly, it was never covered in my driving lessons/test . You are presuming that all cyclists have these conversations. I gave a team talk the other day and about 30 of the 35 drivers there didn't know. So if any of them happened to get on a bike they wouldn't have known. Some people ride bikes, they are not experienced cyclists.

I have been thinking - how do we reach these inexperienced cyclists/bike riders? I'm absolutely not talking victim-blaming, but wondering if there is anything that "engaged" cyclists can do to spread the word "do not cycle to the left of big trucks/coaches". Can CTC or BC develop a leaflet or logo or something that can be deployed at every bike shop check-out, with every new bike or bit of equipment? I would see this as preparing cyclists, not blaming them. The leaflet could be politely refused if the customer is already an experienced cyclist but it could be a lifesaver to the less-well-informed POB.

I would also want to see the improvements in lorry blind spots mentioned above, ie better, lower cabs etc and better training for drivers, not to mention heavy enforcement of all HGV standards, but this thing about cyclists' ignorance is something that we could do something about, isn't it?

 

[vickster]

I think if ALL lorries / trucks / vans (or any size) had the 'cyclist keep back' / 'don't pass on the left' type stickers, I think it would make people think. Very simple, it won't solve any perceived issue, but it certainly won't hurt. I notice all London buses (well all of the ones I have seen) have these on now

A TV / press campaign aimed at cyclists may help and at least affect subconscious awareness. The leaflet above also not a bad idea

 

[theclaud]

yes you do... But everyone makes mistakes and some have not been told. I rode a bike for many years before finding out lorries had blind spots bcoz i simply did not hang out with other cyclists and, amazingly, it was never covered in my driving lessons/test . You are presuming that all cyclists have these conversations. I gave a team talk the other day and about 30 of the 35 drivers there didn't know. So if any of them happened to get on a bike they wouldn't have known. Some people ride bikes, they are not experienced cyclists.

And this is how it should be. Which is why any vehicle that shares our roads should be safe not only around expert cyclists but around inexperienced and incompetent ones, and also ones who occasionally make bad judgements. Lorries should be designed and operated ALWAYS with the assumption that someone small and crushable might be too close. This applies whether the small crushable person has put himself in that position or not. But from the obsession with victim behaviour that follows each incident, and the faux-balance about responsibilities, one might easily forget how much more likely it is in any given collision that the driver is directly at fault than the cyclist. Which of course suits the current power relationship on our roads very nicely thank you.