Tube vs tubeless

[Arrowfoot]

Last week I went for tubeless and disc to get over the hump of uncertainty. Disc was easily resolved by the 3rd day, when intuition took over and the correct lever pressure was applied. Rim muscle memory unlearnt but came readily back when riding with rim brake bike. So no issues here.

Tubeless came fitted with the wheel so just kept an eye on psi and ride quality. No drop in psi after 5 days. Ride was better but could not tell on rolling resistance. Could be placebo as well.

The video caught me unaware in terms of leaks and decided to read up. So this is what I picked up to reciprocate.

There 2 types of tubeless - (1) proper tubeless and (2) tubeless ready. Its the same with wheels. Most of what is out there is tubeless ready wheels and tyres. These can take tubes. Proper tubeless aims for seal around the rim and tyres. Both the wheel and tyres are constructed differently. Apparently wheel manufacturers are listing what tyre models can go on wheels as incompatibility is an issue. So you might want to check.

Just to note that breaks or pits on both the tube and tubeless tyres are no indication of a puncture. This comes with wear and tear and full penetration may not have taken place. We see this all the time on our traditional tube tyres. Loss of air is the only indictor.

Here is a bummer - tyre has a sticker that says use of tyre levers may cause damage to tyre and rim. I suspect to protect the seal. Rather delicate.

Initial indication on reading up is to wait for kinks to be ironed out among the manufactures and standards to take hold. Also too much hassle and mess. Too high on the maintenance index to override the benefits at this stage.

Do feel free to correct anything that I interpreted wrongly.

 

[Lookrider]

Have emailed Schwalbe to see if this is normal.... the pressure is ok but it is clearly leaking.
View attachment 588256

I had same thing on my 1st tubekess set up although a different tyre/manufacter/mtb bike /sealant
The shop were great and supplied a replacement straight away ...I think was good customer care
As in between I read that this can be normal and is due to the how the tyre is made to reduce weight ?
So I did bear with it and eventually it all sealed on the sidewall
I guess swalbe will give you a concise reply to this issue

 

[Deleted User]

I had the same on some WTB gravel tyres, it seals up eventually.

 

[Pale Rider]

I had same thing on my 1st tubekess set up although a different tyre/manufacter/mtb bike /sealant
The shop were great and supplied a replacement straight away ...I think was good customer care
As in between I read that this can be normal and is due to the how the tyre is made to reduce weight ?
So I did bear with it and eventually it all sealed on the sidewall
I guess swalbe will give you a concise reply to this issue

Most tyres are not airtight, but the porosity will usually seal with sealant.

Spots of sealant shouldn't appear on a tyre designed to be tubeless, although the airtight membrane insider the tyre is very thin, presumably to keep weight and cost down.

 

[HLaB]

He must be using the wrong sealant. 3 years ago I experimented with FinishLine never dry out sealant. Its terrible and never dries out to fill a hole either. Touch wood I have never had a problem with other sealants. Tubeless was a Godsend for me during my chemotherapy, not having to mess about with p'tures at the side of the cold with weak cold fingers and my body beginning to shut down from the cold. The ability to run lower more comfy pressures was a bonus too as my wrist was constantly bruised deep by the chemo catheter. At a rough guess during that period I would have had 4-5 p'tures, I had one (a side wall blow out when someone thought it was a good idea to take road bikes down a narrow track 🙄) If we stuck to the road as planned it probably wouldn't have happened. Anyway that was quickly fixed with a tyre worm and the tyre was good for another 30 miles at 18mph.

Now thankfully that's over I am seeing great performance benefits too. I'm beating a lot of my longer/hillier segment times from 7-10 years ago, winning challenges against my piers and knocking significant time of my TTs.

It's also a bonus that the myth about tubeless being a faff and needing constant maintenance is garbage. I quite often pump up my tyres and leave them for nearly a month and experience little psi loss which would have dented my performance. First fitting is a little harder than tubes but not as hard as folk make ou and topping up sealant is quite easy too with a syringe.

My mate who has been 3x master champion (2× Scottish, 1xUK) went tubeless 15 years ago and raves about it. My finish line blip aside I can see why 👍

 

[fair weather cyclist]

I started cycling 1.5 year ago and have always used tubes.

I did almost 3000km last year with no puncture. Then 3 punctures in 20 days, all in the freezing cold. I don't have a lot of time for cycling training and especially in the winter I don't want to waste half an hour trying to change the inner tube with frozen fingers.

I promised myself not to bother with tubes anymore. I'm getting my Giant TCR this weekend, which comes set up tubeless straightaway and can't wait.

Will be a relief for my girlfriend as well as she's the one that had to come pick me up when I couldn't change the tyre in freezing January

 

[Milkfloat]

As soon as I saw an very thin needle combined with Stan's I knew it would not work. Normal Stan's is terrible in road applications in the first place (the Race version is much better), but by using that thin needle he stopped all the crystals getting in the tyre which would have blocked the tiny hole he made. He absolutely set himself up to fail.

 

[fair weather cyclist]

As soon as I saw an very thin needle combined with Stan's I knew it would not work. Normal Stan's is terrible in road applications in the first place (the Race version is much better), but by using that thin needle he stopped all the crystals getting in the tyre which would have blocked the tiny hole he made. He absolutely set himself up to fail.

Also the fact that the recommended quantity is 30-60ml and he specifically chose to use the very bare minimum (probably less since some residue will inevitably stay in the syringe and/or will get lost somewhere else). How many people read 30-60ml and would go with the bare minimum? Most of us, because we're diligent, would go for around 45ml.

So, I don't know much about tubeless, but I'm less than impressed by that video.

 

[Dogtrousers]

As soon as I saw an very thin needle combined with Stan's I knew it would not work. Normal Stan's is terrible in road applications in the first place (the Race version is much better), but by using that thin needle he stopped all the crystals getting in the tyre which would have blocked the tiny hole he made. He absolutely set himself up to fail.

I've seen a number of videos where people gleefully stab tubless tyres, spin the wheel to be sure the sealant gets to it, and watch it seal. I noted that he omitted to spin the wheel.

I don't disagree with his conclusions - that there isn't actually any real problem with tubed tyres - but I do wonder if he engineered things in his video so that it didn't work (just as people with videos showing infallibility may have engineered theirs)

I didn't try them because I found there was a problem with tubes, I did it just out of curiosity, because there's hardly any extra cost (sealant, worms) and I can revert to tubes at no cost at all.

 

[Milkfloat]

I have been running tubeless one way or another for 15 years or more and have never had a problem I could not sort out without having to resort to a tube. The worst has been a hole that refused to seal at high pressure that I had to use a worm/anchovy on. That took all of an extra 30 seconds to deal with, plus a bit longer to add more air to the tyre. I think the key points for me are - if you run tubeless on the road make sure that you don't run at crazy high pressures (100 psi+) as it will struggle to seal, make sure that you decent sealant designed for road use, use a worm/anchovy if you have to, they won't ruin the tyre and finally, relax it is not witchcraft.

 

[Pale Rider]

I agree the miserable quantity he put in, and particularly using a needle to do it, was bound to lead to a sub-optimal installation.

From spots on the outside of my tyres, I know the sealant has dealt with half a dozen punctures without me realising.

Tubeless is probably easier to set up and use in my relatively low pressure balloon tyre installation, although as a big lad on a lumpy ebike, I like to run about 50psi.

Much lower and I can detect some rear wheel squirm.

Changing a tube on twin battery ebike is also a lot more aggro than a skinny road bike.

If I had one of those I might not bother with tubeless.

 

[Jody]

Have emailed Schwalbe to see if this is normal.... the pressure is ok but it is clearly leaking.

My MTB is tubeless and all the tyres i've used have wept on the sidewalls.

 

[Tail End Charlie]

I'd like to try tubeless so I can run lower tyre pressures, for the extra comfort. From what I've read the faff with them is checking and changing the sealant, but at least this is done in the comfort of your home. I get that you have also to carry a tube anyway, just in case.
What stops me at the mo, is the cost of changing over, but I suspect I'll write that off in due course (in other words ignore).

 

[PaulSB]

Gosh he was exciting to listen to.

I've been running tubeless on two bikes since March 2019. No issues apart from a couple of gummed valves. Easily resolved by parking the valves at 4.00 position.

Used a plug once about three months ago. It's still in the tyre. Plugging tubeless takes five minutes which is far quicker than I can change a tubed tyre.

When I bought a new set of tyres the old ones had seven sealed punctures in the pair.

Following this morning's incident I thought a bit more about my experience with tubeless and in fact it's not as rosy as I thought.

This morning I went to top up my tyres before riding. This has always been my routine tubed or tubeless. I have a Lezyne track pump which screws on to the valve. My routine is to unscrew the valve, release some air, screw down again and then open the valve to inflate.

This morning when I unscrewed the pump head the valve core came out. This has happened before. I put the core back in try to inflate but no joy, unscrewed again and the core came out.

When I thought about this more I realised in the last 12 months I have:

1. Been to my LBS +/- 6 times with valve related problems. I generally get one puncture a year.

2. As I've had regular inflation difficulty I ditched two old track pumps and replaced these with two more. Meaning I've used four different track pumps in a year in attempting to overcome inflation difficulties - basically unable to force air in. The track pumps were £30 and £60 so a £90 investment.

3. Had to call International Rescue twice for a lift home when I was unable to reinstall the tyre after inserting a tube. The only ocassions in my life I've needed IR.

4. Spent £40 on a plug kit

I went to the LBS this afternoon and discussed all this. I've decided this is the last chance. If I get another failure I'm going to ditch tubeless.

I have great wheels, great tyres and the ride is superb BUT when a tubeless fails it is a catastrophic failure. When a tube fails it's simply a case of popping in a new tube.

My LBS admitted they are having nightmares with tubeless. When it works it's very good but when it doesn't 🤔

 

[Milkfloat]

Following this morning's incident I thought a bit more about my experience with tubeless and in fact it's not as rosy as I thought.

This morning I went to top up my tyres before riding. This has always been my routine tubed or tubeless. I have a Lezyne track pump which screws on to the valve. My routine is to unscrew the valve, release some air, screw down again and then open the valve to inflate.

This morning when I unscrewed the pump head the valve core came out. This has happened before. I put the core back in try to inflate but no joy, unscrewed again and the core came out.

When I thought about this more I realised in the last 12 months I have:

1. Been to my LBS +/- 6 times with valve related problems. I generally get one puncture a year.

2. As I've had regular inflation difficulty I ditched two old track pumps and replaced these with two more. Meaning I've used four different track pumps in a year in attempting to overcome inflation difficulties - basically unable to force air in. The track pumps were £30 and £60 so a £90 investment.

3. Had to call International Rescue twice for a lift home when I was unable to reinstall the tyre after inserting a tube. The only ocassions in my life I've needed IR.

4. Spent £40 on a plug kit

I went to the LBS this afternoon and discussed all this. I've decided this is the last chance. If I get another failure I'm going to ditch tubeless.

I have great wheels, great tyres and the ride is superb BUT when a tubeless fails it is a catastrophic failure. When a tube fails it's simply a case of popping in a new tube.

My LBS admitted they are having nightmares with tubeless. When it works it's very good but when it doesn't 🤔

Would it be rude of me to suggest that perhaps the problem is you rather than the technology?