Tube vs tubeless

[I like Skol]

Would it be rude of me to suggest that perhaps the problem is you rather than the technology?

I'd suggest it would be very rude.

Gummed up valves is an obvious pitfall of running sealant filled tyres. Nothing user error about it, the sealant is simply fulfilling its design purpose and filling any breach to the outside atmosphere. This is also an issue with slime filled inner tubes.
I have experienced both situations personally.

 

[I like Skol]

Following this morning's incident I thought a bit more about my experience with tubeless and in fact it's not as rosy as I thought.

This morning I went to top up my tyres before riding. This has always been my routine tubed or tubeless. I have a Lezyne track pump which screws on to the valve. My routine is to unscrew the valve, release some air, screw down again and then open the valve to inflate.

This morning when I unscrewed the pump head the valve core came out. This has happened before. I put the core back in try to inflate but no joy, unscrewed again and the core came out.

When I thought about this more I realised in the last 12 months I have:

1. Been to my LBS +/- 6 times with valve related problems. I generally get one puncture a year.

2. As I've had regular inflation difficulty I ditched two old track pumps and replaced these with two more. Meaning I've used four different track pumps in a year in attempting to overcome inflation difficulties - basically unable to force air in. The track pumps were £30 and £60 so a £90 investment.

3. Had to call International Rescue twice for a lift home when I was unable to reinstall the tyre after inserting a tube. The only ocassions in my life I've needed IR.

4. Spent £40 on a plug kit

I went to the LBS this afternoon and discussed all this. I've decided this is the last chance. If I get another failure I'm going to ditch tubeless.

I have great wheels, great tyres and the ride is superb BUT when a tubeless fails it is a catastrophic failure. When a tube fails it's simply a case of popping in a new tube.

My LBS admitted they are having nightmares with tubeless. When it works it's very good but when it doesn't 🤔

Great post Paul. Glad someone has the balls to admit that tubeless is maybe akin to 'The Emporer's New Clothes' and in reality might not be the latest and greatest thing it is being made out to be.
I accept it might work really well for some, but this is not reliable tech for the common man.

 

[PaulSB]

Would it be rude of me to suggest that perhaps the problem is you rather than the technology?

No it wouldn't be rude provided you explain why.

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

Would it be rude of me to suggest that perhaps the problem is you rather than the technology?

For many this is new tech, so it may be that we are all learning more about tubeless systems and it sounds like @PaulSB has unfortunately gone the wrong direction in some of his choices.

For floor pumps, I find the Joe Blow with the flip head to be much less hassle, as you have no risk of unscrewing the valve cores. With tubes, I had moved away from Continental tubes as they sometimes let me down road-side when dealing with a puncture and the core unscrewed as I removed my pump.​

​

Some sealants seem to be better than others for use in road tyres. Many sealants seem to have originally developed for MTB tyres which run at far lower pressures than even the reduced pressures that tubeless enables on road. I'm using Caffelatex sealant and have been using it for about a year on various bikes. No need to remove the valve when using the syringe to fill. No issues with sticking valves despite regularly checking and adjusting pressures.​

​

Plug kits. Worms are cheap, if you're paying £40 I hope you got a very bling capsule for it and it came with all the tools you need. The tools should include a reamer so you can enlarge a pin-sized hole to allow the sealant (and its fibrous admix) to flow into the hole and then seal. If the hole is too small, air gets out but the fibres cant get into the channel and plug the flow.​

​

Refitting tubeless tyres after inserting a tube at the roadside, hopefully a last resort, but often that comes down to technique of fitting tyres. If you need lubricant to get the bead over the rim, saliva works well.​

​

I'm happy with tubeless and I'm gradually converting more of my wheels over to it. These some usefull information here:
https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/pages/tech-page and
https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news/living-with-tubeless-tyres

 

[PaulSB]

Great post Paul. Glad someone has the balls to admit that tubeless is maybe akin to 'The Emporer's New Clothes' and in reality might not be the latest and greatest thing it is being made out to be.
I accept it might work really well for some, but this is not reliable tech for the common man.

I think tubeless is great to ride and from this perspective I've been a strong advocate. In my experience there is no doubt the ride is improved and the sealing action works. Yesterday after another inflation issue which resulted in a full deflation, two failed attempts to replace the valve and having to ditch my summer bike and use my gravel bike on a 67 miles/5000 feet ride I thought about the last 12 months using tubeless.

As I said my conclusion is it's great when it works but any failure is total. Being a bit of a traditionalist I talc my tubes. Anyone who has tried to insert a tube in to a sealant filled tyre with talced tube in the rain will testify to at least one issue!!!!

 

[Arrowfoot]

Following this morning's incident I thought a bit more about my experience with tubeless and in fact it's not as rosy as I thought.

This morning I went to top up my tyres before riding. This has always been my routine tubed or tubeless. I have a Lezyne track pump which screws on to the valve. My routine is to unscrew the valve, release some air, screw down again and then open the valve to inflate.

This morning when I unscrewed the pump head the valve core came out. This has happened before. I put the core back in try to inflate but no joy, unscrewed again and the core came out.

When I thought about this more I realised in the last 12 months I have:

1. Been to my LBS +/- 6 times with valve related problems. I generally get one puncture a year.

2. As I've had regular inflation difficulty I ditched two old track pumps and replaced these with two more. Meaning I've used four different track pumps in a year in attempting to overcome inflation difficulties - basically unable to force air in. The track pumps were £30 and £60 so a £90 investment.

3. Had to call International Rescue twice for a lift home when I was unable to reinstall the tyre after inserting a tube. The only ocassions in my life I've needed IR.

4. Spent £40 on a plug kit

I went to the LBS this afternoon and discussed all this. I've decided this is the last chance. If I get another failure I'm going to ditch tubeless.

I have great wheels, great tyres and the ride is superb BUT when a tubeless fails it is a catastrophic failure. When a tube fails it's simply a case of popping in a new tube.

My LBS admitted they are having nightmares with tubeless. When it works it's very good but when it doesn't 🤔

Thanks for the well articulated post on your experience.

It's good that we all try and experiment with new technology and see for ourselves. I am doing just that.

 

[PaulSB]

For many this is new tech, so it may be that we are all learning more about tubeless systems and it sounds like @PaulSB has unfortunately gone the wrong direction in some of his choices.

For floor pumps, I find the Joe Blow with the flip head to be much less hassle, as you have no risk of unscrewing the valve cores. With tubes, I had moved away from Continental tubes as they sometimes let me down road-side when dealing with a puncture and the core unscrewed as I removed my pump.​

​

Some sealants seem to be better than others for use in road tyres. Many sealants seem to have originally developed for MTB tyres which run at far lower pressures than even the reduced pressures that tubeless enables on road. I'm using Caffelatex sealant and have been using it for about a year on various bikes. No need to remove the valve when using the syringe to fill. No issues with sticking valves despite regularly checking and adjusting pressures.​

​

Plug kits. Worms are cheap, if you're paying £40 I hope you got a very bling capsule for it and it came with all the tools you need. The tools should include a reamer so you can enlarge a pin-sized hole to allow the sealant (and its fibrous admix) to flow into the hole and then seal. If the hole is too small, air gets out but the fibres cant get into the channel and plug the flow.​

​

Refitting tubeless tyres after inserting a tube at the roadside, hopefully a last resort, but often that comes down to technique of fitting tyres. If you need lubricant to get the bead over the rim, saliva works well.​

​

I'm happy with tubeless and I'm gradually converting more of my wheels over to it. These some usefull information here:
https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/pages/tech-page and
https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news/living-with-tubeless-tyres

I would agree I may have gone in the wrong direction with some choices but I feel I have corrected these perhaps still with the wrong approach but hopefully coupled with a bit of learning.

For example I accepted my track pumps, both flip head, could simply be knackered and replaced them with a new flip head and a new screw on. No improvement.

On the plug kit I reviewed a number and chose a metal one over plastic. The logic being plastic can snap at crucial moments. The tool itself came with a reamer, 8 spare worms and is designed in such a way spare worms are safely carried inside. It worked very well on the one occasion I've used - I bought it after two failed attempts to install a tube and two rescues because I recognised for me installing a tube in to tubeless is not easy. I can easily do the whole job on tubed tyres including rolling a tyre on. I'm happy with the tool and only mention it as another cost we have to consider in relation to tubeless.

I've concluded it's a great system when it works but the potential failures are dramatic leaving me to question it's value overall. It's got one more chance and then I'm done. I think the challenge is going to be finding quality wheels which are NOT tubeless ready, my logic being it will be very difficult to reinstall a tyre on the roadside. This may be wrong but it has to be a consideration.

 

[Arrowfoot]

For many this is new tech, so it may be that we are all learning more about tubeless systems and it sounds like @PaulSB has unfortunately gone the wrong direction in some of his choices.

For floor pumps, I find the Joe Blow with the flip head to be much less hassle, as you have no risk of unscrewing the valve cores. With tubes, I had moved away from Continental tubes as they sometimes let me down road-side when dealing with a puncture and the core unscrewed as I removed my pump.​

​

Some sealants seem to be better than others for use in road tyres. Many sealants seem to have originally developed for MTB tyres which run at far lower pressures than even the reduced pressures that tubeless enables on road. I'm using Caffelatex sealant and have been using it for about a year on various bikes. No need to remove the valve when using the syringe to fill. No issues with sticking valves despite regularly checking and adjusting pressures.​

​

Plug kits. Worms are cheap, if you're paying £40 I hope you got a very bling capsule for it and it came with all the tools you need. The tools should include a reamer so you can enlarge a pin-sized hole to allow the sealant (and its fibrous admix) to flow into the hole and then seal. If the hole is too small, air gets out but the fibres cant get into the channel and plug the flow.​

​

Refitting tubeless tyres after inserting a tube at the roadside, hopefully a last resort, but often that comes down to technique of fitting tyres. If you need lubricant to get the bead over the rim, saliva works well.​

​

I'm happy with tubeless and I'm gradually converting more of my wheels over to it. These some usefull information here:
https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/pages/tech-page and
https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news/living-with-tubeless-tyres

All the above spells more maintenance. Topping up sealant by breaking the seal every few months is one example. We also carry tubes just in case which was not the original intention. I think it is slowly turning out to be finding solutions, correct techniques, right products to address a problem. And the problem is handling punctures. Seems rather herculean to handle punctures.

Some of us do ride long and also commute frequently, punctures are overtime are few and far between. If the fear is punctures, maybe tyres that aim at being puncture resistance is a better solution.

I am keeping my recently bought tubeless just to get the feel. Always game to try new things. Most do work. This was one has a long way to go.

 

[I like Skol]

Some of us do ride long and also commute frequently, punctures are overtime are few and far between. If the fear is punctures, maybe.....

..... practice your puncture repair technique. A roadside puncture repair is simple and quick, if you have the correct basic tools and know how to do it. No witchcraft or crossed fingers required.

I do indeed ride longer (100+ miles) leisure rides as well as urban commuting and mountainbiking. Punctures are not an issue or a regular occurrence. I might rarely get a cluster of 3-4 incidents in a short period of say 6 months, but then might not have a single one for two years. This is all while covering around 4000miles a year in a mostly urban eviron with the typical broken glass and trade debris (screws/bolts/metal shards etc).

Can't imagine why I would even think about tubeless when tubes are so simple, hassle free and reliable, and fixing a rare unexpected flat is quick and stress free?

 

[Arrowfoot]

..... practice your puncture repair technique. A roadside puncture repair is simple and quick, if you have the correct basic tools and know how to do it. No witchcraft or crossed fingers required.

I do indeed ride longer (100+ miles) leisure rides as well as urban commuting and mountainbiking. Punctures are not an issue or a regular occurrence. I might rarely get a cluster of 3-4 incidents in a short period of say 6 months, but then might not have a single one for two years. This is all while covering around 4000miles a year in a mostly urban eviron with the typical broken glass and trade debris (screws/bolts/metal shards etc).

Can't imagine why I would even think about tubeless when tubes are so simple, hassle free and reliable, and fixing a rare unexpected flat is quick and stress free?

Changing tubes has become second nature for me. Similar experience as you. I am on high for the last 2 years. But I had to try new technology being the sap that I am.

 

[Deleted User]

Why don't people who want to use tubeless use them and those who don't................well don't.

Same as helmets.

I can understand people asking who might think it worth it and then give their opinions, and the same for those who have used them and thought it's not for them to give theirs.

 

[Arrowfoot]

Why don't people who want to use tubeless use them and those who don't................well don't.

Same as helmets.

I can understand people asking who might think it worth it and then give their opinions, and the same for those who have used them and thought it's not for them to give theirs.

Just folks sharing experiences and opinions. I am learning a lot from this. I am sure that how this forum became popular.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

two rescues because I recognised for me installing a tube in to tubeless is not easy

I've not considered tubeless and this is why.

In over 30 years and well into six figure mileage, that's more rescues than I've ever needed for all issues.

It seems like a solution looking for a problem.

 

[T4tomo]

My take on this....

if you are riding off-road, you need lower pressures for grip, and thus you are more vulnerable to snakebite / pinch punctures. Tubeless seems like a reasonable solution to this problem.

if you ride with tyres at a reasonably high pressure with ~28mm or less, then you have have less risk of pinch punctures and a decent puncture protected tyre is probably a better bet that tubeless, as there are inherent issues with sealant in lower volume tyres at high pressures.

Gravel bikes going off-road a lot I'm on the fence...pro's and cons to each

 

[matticus]

I've not considered tubeless and this is why.

In over 30 years and well into six figure mileage, that's more rescues than I've ever needed for all issues.

It seems like a solution looking for a problem.

I suspect the "problem" was "We're not selling enough wheels and tyres. How can we make them replace stuff that is working perfectly fine? And also buy a load of accesories/tools that don't exist yet!"