Was this bus driver bad?

[col]

Ok,lets look at it again.The bus indicated to pull away,and started to,but a bike seemed to appear from nowhere.Now because the lights were red behind, and nothing normally may be coming,and the way the bike must have been behind the bus,not in mirror angles,so unseen by the driver,who may have missed the bike rlj ing possibly,because of dealing with on off passengers?then as it started to pull away,a bike is then visible at the rear of the bus.It seems to me ,that because of cicumstances,who is to blame for the confrontation?The drivers reaction to sarcasm and an appearing bike,well sticking the fingers up,is as agreed the wrong thing to do.what about the bike?they may not have seen the indicators of the bus,but thats unlikely,as they are quiet visible things,so did the cyclist decide to ignore the fact that the bus was going to pull away?And carry on regardless,then its the cyclists fault isnt it?
Did the bike rlj? who knows,but its a possibility?The bus driver wasnt expecting the bike,and didnt see it on the first check,but did on the second as starting to pull away.Now if the bike wasnt there on the first check,at the same time as indicating to pull away,where was it?Whatever we decide,we dont know why the cyclist did what they did,was the road slippy?only the bus driver could answer that,was it dangerous for the bike to slow and let the bus go?unlikely.What it seems we have,is someone not willing to give when they should have,not because they have to,but because its safer to.As for hinting that people shouldnt be in their jobs because they sometimes act like most of us may at some time,is a bit harsh.In other words,these things happen,how we deal with them is what counts.

 

[tdr1nka]

Dammit, this debate is near impenetrable!

As a MTB rider I have had(and should renew)3rd party insurance so that in the event of my error I'm covered.
I think I'd even be happy to pay a low level of cycle road tax, if only to ensure some level of respect and autonomy on the street.

T x

 

[col]

Yes, I see your point. And I agree that a cyclist's poor behaviour is generally what a driver remembers.

But we're not talking about cyclists here. We're talking about someone who is being paid to provide a service and representing a company. And the fact that bus drivers can (and often do) suit themselves with the language and gestures that they choose and it's accepted as ok, but a librarian would be sacked for telling a customer to <insert expletive> off.

But a librarian is very unlikely to get cut up at the fiction section a few timesAlso in the ten hours of a day,lots of things happen,sometimes repeatedly,which could be dangerous,and eventually,even the mildest person in the world will react,it happens,its human nature,doesnt matter what job we do.

 

[nethalus]

Lenient, LOL!

I know we said Cambridge was an old city, I never figured for Currently;Medieval!

Please, please, please can someone explain to me why on earth a bus driver might be on a cycling Forum if they don't actually ride a bike, hence nix most of Mr. Pauls & Cabs verbiage?

This is reminding me of the Interview Technique films that John Cleese made for schools!

Tx

Don't worry Nethulas, I can type all day if need be!

This was the original thread the was started by Magnatom about me and my infamous comment on YouTube.
http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=2438&highlight=bus+driver+question

 

[Cab]

Ok,lets look at it again.The bus indicated to pull away,and started to,but a bike seemed to appear from nowhere.Now because the lights were red behind, and nothing normally may be coming,and the way the bike must have been behind the bus,not in mirror angles,so unseen by the driver,who may have missed the bike rlj ing possibly,because of dealing with on off passengers?

Nethalus stated that there was also a legal route by which the cyclist could have got there. So lets take the whole rlj thing out of the equation, if the cyclist could legally have got there then the bus driver must accept that the cyclist might be there, period. Whether he's jumped a red light or not is now completely irrelevent, if a cyclist can legally be there then the bus driver has to be alert to that.

So, a cyclist who has legally cycled into a position in which the bus driver has not, when checking, seen him. At worst the cyclist is guilty of bad road positioning here, but we can't even say that for sure, if the road is bendy it might be nigh on impossible for the cyclist to be much more visible.

then as it started to pull away,a bike is then visible at the rear of the bus.

Thats pretty certain. The bus starts moving into space occupied, or shortly to be occupied, by the bike. Bike either hasn't been noticed because it was in a blind spot, or hasn't been noticed because the driver didn't look properly. Either way, its now clear that the manoevre that the bus driver was trying to start is not appropriate, and the bus driver has to stop. She did this, and then...

It seems to me ,that because of cicumstances,who is to blame for the confrontation?The drivers reaction to sarcasm and an appearing bike,well sticking the fingers up,is as agreed the wrong thing to do.

Precisely. The cyclist wasn't really rude, the bus driver was. So the bus driver has made an error, she's scared the cyclist and now she's abusing him, and all he's done is been polite. Cyclist might have been able to stop and let the bus go safely, but the he's made the decision that he can't do so and thats his call, not the bus drivers.

what about the bike?they may not have seen the indicators of the bus,but thats unlikely,as they are quiet visible things,so did the cyclist decide to ignore the fact that the bus was going to pull away?And carry on regardless,then its the cyclists fault isnt it?

Possibly, but we can't say. What we can say is that its the cyclists call. While you should allow a bus out if its safe to do so, it isn't up to a bus driver to enforce that rule using a bus. Its down to the cyclist to decide whether, on balance, he can safely allow the bus out. I don't devolve that choice to anyone else, neither do you, nor does anyone believe that we should.

So, the cyclist has excercised a reasonable (legal) choice to pass the bus. It might be rude, it might be inconsiderate. But his fair choice nonetheless.

Did the bike rlj? who knows,but its a possibility?

As I've said, if the cyclist can be there legally then this is now an irrelevent question.

(cut)

Whatever we decide,we dont know why the cyclist did what they did,was the road slippy?only the bus driver could answer that,was it dangerous for the bike to slow and let the bus go?unlikely.

Heck, its often dangerous to slow down sharply and let a vehicle out! I wouldn't say thats an unlikely scenario at all. More importantly, I'd take other road users second guessing my choices on that very, very badly indeed!

What it seems we have,is someone not willing to give when they should have,not because they have to,but because its safer to.As for hinting that people shouldnt be in their jobs because they sometimes act like most of us may at some time,is a bit harsh.In other words,these things happen,how we deal with them is what counts.

I didn't hint it, I outright said it. If you can't deal with another road user legally being in a place that is inconvenient to you, and who is subsequently polite about a mistake you make because of it, then get off the road. Really, whether you're a professional or not, get the hell off the road if you're going to be wound up by that.

 

[tdr1nka]

Remind me, the over reacting referrs to which part of the thread.

My final offer, a verbal warning for the hand gesture.

I've once been told to 'Look, just F*ck Off!' by a Policeman at the roadside who was reaching the end of his tether, I took it as reason to let matters slide as he was obviously having a hard enough time.
Should I have performed a citizens arrest, maybe taken his number and reported him? No, I took a humanist approach and let the matter go.

 

[tdr1nka]

Nethalus, Nethalus, Nethalus,

How you have shaken and unleashed the Bus Finder Generals!
Thanks for the link, I'm up to speed now, watch me goooooo!

T x

 

[nethalus]

Nethalus, Nethalus, Nethalus,

How you have shaken and unleashed the Bus Finder Generals!
Thanks for the link, I'm up to speed now, watch me goooooo!

T x

There's only one of me you'll be pleased to know!

 

[tdr1nka]

"Really, whether you're a professional or not, get the hell off the road if you're going to be wound up by that."

Guys, guys, guys, can we get some bloody perspective here?
Bus, we know, probably in the right.
Cyclist only potentially wrong due to road space issue.
Frustrated driver, hand signal, wrong.

Imagine having the stress of potentially hitting someone when it was their own mistake, something I'm certain happens to public transport drivers daily.

I think Cab & Co. need to go back to the 1950's for the type of road etiqutte they're looking for.

T x

 

[domd1979]

I sympathise a great deal with bus drivers. I can understand stopping alongside lay-bys, since in heavy traffic it takes so long to pull out of them again - hence round Brum there's a lot of build-outs to formalise stopping in the carriageway. I can also understand pushing into the traffic as otherwise they'd never get out (last night on the bus to Wolves, it took ages to pull out of a particular lay-by into a virtually static queue of traffic leading up to a roundabout because no one would let it out, in the end the bus just edged out forcing someone to stop - delay to anyone letting the bus out: nil).

If you consider an average bus route has around 20 stops, and say it takes 20 seconds to pull out of each stop, that's around 6 minutes of delay on say a 35-40 minute running time. Drivers are under pressure to keep to time, and passengers need to get where they're going.

If you look at minutes of delay per person caused by buses having difficulty pulling out, 6 minutes per passenger on a full bus is a lot of delay compared to about 3 seconds to one driver to let the bus out.

Agreed. Equally irritating though is those bus drivers who pull over without indicating or stop alongside bus stop laybyes in the middle or the road just because they can't be bothered to wait for a gap in the traffic once they want to start again. That's part of their job. The laybyes are there to get buses out of the flow and allow traffic to continue.

Or the drivers who see you coming at a fair rate and rather than wait an extra couple of seconds for you to pass pull out regardless.

It works both ways.

 

[col]

OK. Social worker then.

And I speak from past experience. Far more stressful than driving a bus. Far higher level of conflict, but still the expectation to remain professional.

Or lawyer. Politician (allowances for Prescott).

So a social worker gets cut up at the fiction section

I agree about social working,but in all my past jobs,there was only one that was as stressfull,and had the same sort of risks,that was a manager for quick save,ie shoplifters,not a day went by when you werent wrestling in the isles with them,or expecting your car to still be there when you locked up,or worse.

 

[col]

Nethalus stated that there was also a legal route by which the cyclist could have got there. So lets take the whole rlj thing out of the equation, if the cyclist could legally have got there then the bus driver must accept that the cyclist might be there, period. Whether he's jumped a red light or not is now completely irrelevent, if a cyclist can legally be there then the bus driver has to be alert to that.

So, a cyclist who has legally cycled into a position in which the bus driver has not, when checking, seen him. At worst the cyclist is guilty of bad road positioning here, but we can't even say that for sure, if the road is bendy it might be nigh on impossible for the cyclist to be much more visible.



Thats pretty certain. The bus starts moving into space occupied, or shortly to be occupied, by the bike. Bike either hasn't been noticed because it was in a blind spot, or hasn't been noticed because the driver didn't look properly. Either way, its now clear that the manoevre that the bus driver was trying to start is not appropriate, and the bus driver has to stop. She did this, and then...



Precisely. The cyclist wasn't really rude, the bus driver was. So the bus driver has made an error, she's scared the cyclist and now she's abusing him, and all he's done is been polite. Cyclist might have been able to stop and let the bus go safely, but the he's made the decision that he can't do so and thats his call, not the bus drivers.



Possibly, but we can't say. What we can say is that its the cyclists call. While you should allow a bus out if its safe to do so, it isn't up to a bus driver to enforce that rule using a bus. Its down to the cyclist to decide whether, on balance, he can safely allow the bus out. I don't devolve that choice to anyone else, neither do you, nor does anyone believe that we should.

So, the cyclist has excercised a reasonable (legal) choice to pass the bus. It might be rude, it might be inconsiderate. But his fair choice nonetheless.



As I've said, if the cyclist can be there legally then this is now an irrelevent question.

(cut)

Heck, its often dangerous to slow down sharply and let a vehicle out! I wouldn't say thats an unlikely scenario at all. More importantly, I'd take other road users second guessing my choices on that very, very badly indeed!



I didn't hint it, I outright said it. If you can't deal with another road user legally being in a place that is inconvenient to you, and who is subsequently polite about a mistake you make because of it, then get off the road. Really, whether you're a professional or not, get the hell off the road if you're going to be wound up by that.

But the bus driver didnt make a mistake did she?She stopped when she saw it appear from behind.I say the cyclist made the mistake when they still went to overtake,even though they were not at the back of the bus while it was indicating.The drivers first check says this.Only a fool would attempt to pass if the indicators are on,unless they werent on,as the cyclist started to reach the back of the bus,and the bike showed itself at speed.
Oi shouted isnt really a polite way,nor sarcasm,especailly when they are in the wrong anyway.
A cyclist slowing down on a bus and cycle lane because they left it too late to pass,?No ,i cant see where that would be very dangerous?
The bus driver didnt enforce any rule either,the bike wasnt there at first ,then when seen the bus stopped.So it wasnt occupied space either.
Come on Cab,there are holes in this debate,i expected more from you

 

[col]

Agreed. Equally irritating though is those bus drivers who pull over without indicating or stop alongside bus stop laybyes in the middle or the road just because they can't be bothered to wait for a gap in the traffic once they want to start again. That's part of their job. The laybyes are there to get buses out of the flow and allow traffic to continue.

Or the drivers who see you coming at a fair rate and rather than wait an extra couple of seconds for you to pass pull out regardless.

It works both ways.

This is a generalisation again.The minority might,but most dont.

 

[Cab]

But the bus driver didnt make a mistake did she?

Yes, she really did. Bottom line is that she didn't see a cyclist that was coming past her until she started to pull out. You can kill someone that way.

For whatever reason, her actions risked the welfare of the cyclist, a cyclist who had broken no law, who had made no demonstrable error. Cycling home yesterday, on two occasions I overtook busses that were stopped, both started indicating after I'd moved well out to overtake them; I could have pulled a sharp stop in icy conditions to let them go or I could do the safer thing and continue past them, knowing that had they indicated earlier I could have let them out.

She stopped when she saw it appear from behind.

Which was too late. Whether by design (blind spot) or lack of attention, she saw the cyclist too late. You don't start moving out into moving traffic where there isn't a gap, its your error if you do so.

I say the cyclist made the mistake when they still went to overtake,even though they were not at the back of the bus while it was indicating.

No, the driver didn't notice the bike. Doesn't mean it wasn't there.

(further cut, unread)

I shall not entertain any further possibility that Nethalus was not in the wrong, nor shall I accept that her subsequent behaviour can be excused in any way.

 

[Brock]

I think I pretty much go along with Cab in this discussion. The important point in my view is that the bus has started a maneuver that has brought it into conflict with a vehicle that has the right of way. The cyclist has sensibly called an audible warning and then received abuse.
Bus driver has made a mistake (it happens) by pulling out into the path of traffic, and then (for which there is no excuse) has vented frustration from the days irritations by abusing the cyclist.
The mistake is perfectly understandable, the salute is not.
Naughty bus driver!
There, I think that's appropriate admonishment for this minuscule misdemeanor.

Much respect to Nethalus for engaging with us on such topics, if all bus drivers cared as much the world would be a happier place.