MontyVeda
a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
- Location
- Lancaster... the little city.
regarding being clipped in... just how much 'actual' benefit does pulling up on the back foot give?
Who is not clipped in and why?
- Thread starter Ladytrucker
- Start date
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mickle
innit
- Location
- 53.933606, -1.076131
Time to roll out this article again methinks......
The Shoes Ruse
In this extract from his book JUST RIDE, Grant Petersen of Rivendell Bicycle Works explodes some of the myths surrounding clip-in pedals
A firm attachment to the pedals was helpful and almost necessary in the early days of bike racing, when all bikes had fixed gears (no freewheel, no coasting), and the gears were low by today’s standards. Then, once the racers got up to 18 miles per hour or so, they were spinning the pedals like human roadrunners, and if a foot came off the pedal, it was harder to slow the bike down and find the pedals again. Toe clips, straps, and cleats evolved to secure the foot and reduce the danger of runaway pedals, and eventually the freewheel eliminated that danger altogether. But by then, the clips and straps were entrenched, and there was no going back. By 1980, if you rode a bike and didn’t use toe clips, straps, and cleats, you weren’t serious.
Then, in the mid ’80s, LOOK—a ski boot and binding maker—introduced ski-binding technology to bikes, with the first popular clipless pedal-and-shoe system. Pro racers took to it, other manufacturers followed, and within three years virtually every road racer in the First World had converted. It spilled over to mountain-bike racing, and today even a few gullible commuters have adopted them. When I see ten-year-olds riding with clipless shoes and pedals, I fear for the future.
Proponents say:
With clipless, there’s more power to the pedal because it’s not being absorbed by a soft and flexible shoe sole.
With clipless, it’s easier to apply power all around the circular pedal stroke.
Neither is true, though.
As long as your pedals aren’t dinky - say, as long as they’re 2.5 x 3.5 inches, or about the size of a compact digital camera - any shoe does the job without flexing, because the shoe is supported by the pedal. If the pedal can’t flex, the shoe can’t - no matter how flexy it may be just out of the box. Besides, the part of your foot that’s behind the pedal can’t flex while you’re pedaling, because your foot mechanics won’t allow it.
The only riders who benefit from clipless pedals are racers, and only because their pedals are so small and slippery. If you don’t ride tiny, slippery pedals, you don’t need stiff, cleated shoes.
And the 360-degrees-of-power argument is just as weak. In studies where efficient, pro pedal-ers and lousy rookie pedalers have been hooked up to machines that measure muscle activity during pedaling, the machines tell us that nobody pulls up on the backstroke. The most efficient pedalers just push down less on the upward moving pedal than the rookies do. (They still push down on the upward-moving pedal - not a good thing, because effectively one leg is fighting the other - but the best pedalers push down less.) Now, if they don’t pull up, you don’t pull up, and if you don’t pull up, there’s no 360 degrees of power, and no biomechanical/physiological reason to lock your foot to the pedal.
The benefits of pedaling free far outweigh any real or imagined benefits of being locked in. They are as follows:
You can wear any casual shoe in your closet - whatever your mood, your outfit, and the weather calls for. You don’t have to go find your “cycling shoes” because you won’t have invested in techie two-hundred-dollar pedals that require them.
Your muscles last longer. Moving your foot about the pedal shifts the load, even if slightly, to different muscles, and spreads the load around. Sprint up hills on the balls of your feet and, on long-seated climbs, push with the pedal centered almost under your arch. It’s not a turbocharged, magic sweet spot, but it feels better and more natural, and you can’t do it if you’re locked in.
You reduce the chance of a repetitive stress injury, because your feet naturally move around more, changing your biomechanics.
You get off and on easier at stoplights; there’s no twisting to get out of your pedals, no fussing to get back in.
You can walk in stores without walking on your heels. You can run! You aren’t handicapped by expensive and weird-looking shoes.
Riding “free” isn’t new or revolutionary, and it’s not just a grumpy stab at the established order. It’s normal, it’s natural - it’s the way you rode as a kid, the way most of the planet rides, and the way you’d ride if you weren’t under the racing influence. Can you imagine yourself - after years or decades of perfectly uneventful happy riding in regular shoes and pedals - concluding that you’d be better off riding in shoes that didn’t work as well off the bike, or on pedals that required special shoes?
I know - of course - that it helps to be firmly attached to the pedal when you’re sprinting in the rain (your foot may slip off the pedals without a fixed connection), or hopping over a dead raccoon, or hiking the bike up over a curb without getting off. But giving up normal shoes for a few rare circumstances like these doesn’t make sense.
From JUST RIDE by Grant Petersen ISBN-13: 978-0761155584
Grant Petersen is founder and chief honcho at Rivendell Bike Works - www.rivbike.com
The Shoes Ruse
In this extract from his book JUST RIDE, Grant Petersen of Rivendell Bicycle Works explodes some of the myths surrounding clip-in pedals
A firm attachment to the pedals was helpful and almost necessary in the early days of bike racing, when all bikes had fixed gears (no freewheel, no coasting), and the gears were low by today’s standards. Then, once the racers got up to 18 miles per hour or so, they were spinning the pedals like human roadrunners, and if a foot came off the pedal, it was harder to slow the bike down and find the pedals again. Toe clips, straps, and cleats evolved to secure the foot and reduce the danger of runaway pedals, and eventually the freewheel eliminated that danger altogether. But by then, the clips and straps were entrenched, and there was no going back. By 1980, if you rode a bike and didn’t use toe clips, straps, and cleats, you weren’t serious.
Then, in the mid ’80s, LOOK—a ski boot and binding maker—introduced ski-binding technology to bikes, with the first popular clipless pedal-and-shoe system. Pro racers took to it, other manufacturers followed, and within three years virtually every road racer in the First World had converted. It spilled over to mountain-bike racing, and today even a few gullible commuters have adopted them. When I see ten-year-olds riding with clipless shoes and pedals, I fear for the future.
Proponents say:
With clipless, there’s more power to the pedal because it’s not being absorbed by a soft and flexible shoe sole.
With clipless, it’s easier to apply power all around the circular pedal stroke.
Neither is true, though.
As long as your pedals aren’t dinky - say, as long as they’re 2.5 x 3.5 inches, or about the size of a compact digital camera - any shoe does the job without flexing, because the shoe is supported by the pedal. If the pedal can’t flex, the shoe can’t - no matter how flexy it may be just out of the box. Besides, the part of your foot that’s behind the pedal can’t flex while you’re pedaling, because your foot mechanics won’t allow it.
The only riders who benefit from clipless pedals are racers, and only because their pedals are so small and slippery. If you don’t ride tiny, slippery pedals, you don’t need stiff, cleated shoes.
And the 360-degrees-of-power argument is just as weak. In studies where efficient, pro pedal-ers and lousy rookie pedalers have been hooked up to machines that measure muscle activity during pedaling, the machines tell us that nobody pulls up on the backstroke. The most efficient pedalers just push down less on the upward moving pedal than the rookies do. (They still push down on the upward-moving pedal - not a good thing, because effectively one leg is fighting the other - but the best pedalers push down less.) Now, if they don’t pull up, you don’t pull up, and if you don’t pull up, there’s no 360 degrees of power, and no biomechanical/physiological reason to lock your foot to the pedal.
The benefits of pedaling free far outweigh any real or imagined benefits of being locked in. They are as follows:
You can wear any casual shoe in your closet - whatever your mood, your outfit, and the weather calls for. You don’t have to go find your “cycling shoes” because you won’t have invested in techie two-hundred-dollar pedals that require them.
Your muscles last longer. Moving your foot about the pedal shifts the load, even if slightly, to different muscles, and spreads the load around. Sprint up hills on the balls of your feet and, on long-seated climbs, push with the pedal centered almost under your arch. It’s not a turbocharged, magic sweet spot, but it feels better and more natural, and you can’t do it if you’re locked in.
You reduce the chance of a repetitive stress injury, because your feet naturally move around more, changing your biomechanics.
You get off and on easier at stoplights; there’s no twisting to get out of your pedals, no fussing to get back in.
You can walk in stores without walking on your heels. You can run! You aren’t handicapped by expensive and weird-looking shoes.
Riding “free” isn’t new or revolutionary, and it’s not just a grumpy stab at the established order. It’s normal, it’s natural - it’s the way you rode as a kid, the way most of the planet rides, and the way you’d ride if you weren’t under the racing influence. Can you imagine yourself - after years or decades of perfectly uneventful happy riding in regular shoes and pedals - concluding that you’d be better off riding in shoes that didn’t work as well off the bike, or on pedals that required special shoes?
I know - of course - that it helps to be firmly attached to the pedal when you’re sprinting in the rain (your foot may slip off the pedals without a fixed connection), or hopping over a dead raccoon, or hiking the bike up over a curb without getting off. But giving up normal shoes for a few rare circumstances like these doesn’t make sense.
From JUST RIDE by Grant Petersen ISBN-13: 978-0761155584
Grant Petersen is founder and chief honcho at Rivendell Bike Works - www.rivbike.com
MontyVeda
a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
- Location
- Lancaster... the little city.
thanks for that Mickle... I'm not knocking the info, but it does come across as bias.
I'm asking because last w/e, i had a conversation with two clip fanatics and tried to explain (badly) that the 'up-stoke' concept doesn't hold much weight, nor does being clipped in give 'smoother rotation'... but they weren't buying it and being owners of clipless pedals, are by default, an authority on cycling over me with my flats, who is by default, an ignorant amatuer. (it became quite a heated debate)
Thanks for posting... now where's the pro clip argument to counter the above?
I'm asking because last w/e, i had a conversation with two clip fanatics and tried to explain (badly) that the 'up-stoke' concept doesn't hold much weight, nor does being clipped in give 'smoother rotation'... but they weren't buying it and being owners of clipless pedals, are by default, an authority on cycling over me with my flats, who is by default, an ignorant amatuer. (it became quite a heated debate)
Thanks for posting... now where's the pro clip argument to counter the above?
CycloneCharlie
Member
I know the clips are meant to add 10% to power/efficiency, but to me the number one priority is safety. I want to be able to take my feet out of the pedals without a second's thought in an emergency situation. I had several falls, but the final straw was falling off into the path of oncoming traffic, I wont even consider them again.
MontyVeda
a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
- Location
- Lancaster... the little city.
it's figures like this i find hard to believe... where's the science?
this, i believe, is entirely possible with decent platform pedals too... it's a technique/mindset thing, rather than a 'gear' thing.
youngoldbloke
The older I get, the faster I used to be ...
....... round and round and round we go ........
CycloneCharlie
Member
Only hearsay... I have yet to see raw data from studies done on this. I'd bet that there is little is any energy coming from pedal upstroke.
mrandmrspoves
Middle aged bald git.
- Location
- Narfuk
Best solution flat pedals (because they're on the bike when you buy it and don't cost extra and no special shoes)
Second best solution for those who want to ride using clipless .....get a recumbent trike! (No clipless moments!!)
My personal experience is I started using SPD's when cycling around Thetford Forest on my MTB and found that they helped stop my wet and muddy feet slipping off the pedals - so I liked them. I had my clipless moments falling into gorse bushes or stinging nettles - not comfy, but better than falling under a bus.
I grew to like using SPD's and I find it very difficult now to ride without them as I tend to lift my feet off the pedals.
Now I ride my Trice I love coming to a halt and being able to remain clipped in.
Second best solution for those who want to ride using clipless .....get a recumbent trike! (No clipless moments!!)
My personal experience is I started using SPD's when cycling around Thetford Forest on my MTB and found that they helped stop my wet and muddy feet slipping off the pedals - so I liked them. I had my clipless moments falling into gorse bushes or stinging nettles - not comfy, but better than falling under a bus.
I grew to like using SPD's and I find it very difficult now to ride without them as I tend to lift my feet off the pedals.
Now I ride my Trice I love coming to a halt and being able to remain clipped in.
Chris Norton
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Boston, Lincs
I also have an issue with feet slipping off pedals, probably my technique more than anything else. So I used to use old style track pedals with clips. Used to have knee problems specifically tendinitis. Fast forward 20 years and I now use duel sided pedals, one side for off to work or the shops, spd clips with racing shoes for when I'm on a ride. Now here's where it gets interesting, due to the amount of adjustment and float with the clipped in, I never lose my feet on the pedal and more importantly for me, have not had knee problems. 
For me, I probably would never go back to non clips for serious rides. Do I think I get some performance increase due to the clipped in? Only the fact my feet are always on the pedals.
For me, I probably would never go back to non clips for serious rides. Do I think I get some performance increase due to the clipped in? Only the fact my feet are always on the pedals.
MontyVeda
a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
- Location
- Lancaster... the little city.
so are mine, on platform pedals and any* pair of shoes... my foot has never** slipped off
* ok, not 'any' pair of shoes, but any of my shoes.
** this is not a fact... I have had slippy pedals in the past, but the latest pair, bought a decade ago... I've never slipped off 'em.
Chris Norton
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Boston, Lincs
And therefore, I consider it either to be my technique or my own body's mechanics for my slipping off pedals.
MontyVeda
a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
- Location
- Lancaster... the little city.
or the type of pedals you had.
Chris Norton
Well-Known Member
- Location
- Boston, Lincs
Or a combination of all of them.
It works for my knees not my performance (which is generally what everyone barks on about)
rovers1875
Veteran
- Location
- Accrington
Who is not clipped in? ME
Why? Because I like flat platform pedals, I'm to lazy / tight fisted to buy new pedals and shoes. if I wanted to improve my speed / efficiency, then my first change would be eat less pies drink less alcohol and lose a stone or so.
By the way what is a proper cyclist anyway.
Why? Because I like flat platform pedals, I'm to lazy / tight fisted to buy new pedals and shoes. if I wanted to improve my speed / efficiency, then my first change would be eat less pies drink less alcohol and lose a stone or so.
By the way what is a proper cyclist anyway.
the_mikey
Legendary Member
- Location
- South Gloucestershire
I rode wearing wellies on the folding bike today...
