Why do people tailgate?

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bozmandb9

Insert witty title here
This is depressingly reminiscent of the debates about introducing disk brakes to the pro peloton. Surely, once your brakes are powerful enough to lock the wheels, the braking distance is limited by the coefficient of friction of the tyre to the road, and the method used to lock the wheel is irrelevant?
Not really. The SBC system anticipates emergency situations, pre-loads the system. It dries wet discs intermittently, uses supercomputers to prevent wheel lock, it's an immensely complex electronic system, now sadly discontinued. By your argument all development of braking systems should be pointless, yet they continue to improve. Perhaps they should have given up once ABS was invented?
 

bozmandb9

Insert witty title here
[QUOTE 3927231, member: 9609"]I'm under no doubt that within normal traffic speeds the lowest will be the most economical. My van returns fantastic mpg tootling along between 40 & 50 in 5th gear - but if I was to travel between 30 & 40 I would need to use 4th, would that be more economical ?, and how about between 20 & 30 driving in 3rd. Would there come a point where slower was less economical ?
As we all should know from cycling an increase in speed takes a disproportional amount of energy to over come wind resistance (proportional to the square or the cube or something) but in a well designed aerodynamic car that threshold where an increase in speed comes at a high energy price must be much higher than a bike, may be 30 or 40 mph ?[/QUOTE]

IIRC, the sweet spot is around 56 mph for the average car, in top gear, with engine revs nice and low. Of course you burn less fuel per minute at lower speeds, but I think Benb may be failing to realise that you're also covering more distance, hence the greater efficiency. According to his logic you'll be most efficient at standstill?
 

benb

Evidence based cyclist
Location
Epsom
IIRC, the sweet spot is around 56 mph for the average car, in top gear, with engine revs nice and low. Of course you burn less fuel per minute at lower speeds, but I think Benb may be failing to realise that you're also covering more distance, hence the greater efficiency. According to his logic you'll be most efficient at standstill?

Unless you set your watch and always drive for a set amount of time, it's not time driven that's important at all.
For a given journey, fuel efficiency will tend to improve the slower you travel.
Of course there's a balance to be struck, but you were suggesting earlier that fuel efficiency doesn't improve at lower speeds, which is clearly rubbish.
 

bozmandb9

Insert witty title here
Unless you set your watch and always drive for a set amount of time, it's not time driven that's important at all.
For a given journey, fuel efficiency will tend to improve the slower you travel.
Of course there's a balance to be struck, but you were suggesting earlier that fuel efficiency doesn't improve at lower speeds, which is clearly rubbish.
No, it's not. Firstly, I think you're mistaking me for someone else, I wasn't involved in the debate about fuel efficiency. Till you dragged me in with your mistake. But since I'm here, it's pretty obvious that below a certain speed, fuel efficiency falls.

Are you seriously suggesting for example that fuel efficiency at 5mph is greater than at 50mph? As I said, I believe the optimal speed is around 56, but I may be wrong. Certainly driving at 90 mph will very obviously be less efficient than at 70, however I would expect that 30 would be less efficient than 50 as well.

p.s. I just checked, and the energy saving trust seem to agree with me, they state that the most efficient speed is 55-65 mph.

p.p.s. I just trawled through, and your argument over fuel efficiency was with earlstownflya (hope I got the spelling right), until you cocked up and started arguing against me presumably either thinking I was he, or thinking my comment about common sense related to fuel efficiency, when it was about the braking/ tailgating discussion I was involved in.
 
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Dan B

Disengaged member
Are you seriously suggesting for example that fuel efficiency at 5mph is greater than at 50mph?
If you have a car you can control at 5mph without slipping the clutch I would not be at all surprised to find out it was more efficient at that speed. All of the forces it has to overcome are proportional to speed or increase disproportionately with speed, the only way it could be more efficient at 50mph is by being incredibly inefficient at 5,which doesn't sound great for urban driving
 

DaveReading

Don't suffer fools gladly (must try harder!)
Location
Reading, obvs
All of the forces it has to overcome are proportional to speed or increase disproportionately with speed

Yes, at speed the main force that engine power has to overcome is aerodynamic drag. That's proportional to the square of the speed - at 50mph drag is approaching three times as much as it is at 30mph.
 

benb

Evidence based cyclist
Location
Epsom
No, it's not. Firstly, I think you're mistaking me for someone else, I wasn't involved in the debate about fuel efficiency. Till you dragged me in with your mistake. But since I'm here, it's pretty obvious that below a certain speed, fuel efficiency falls.

Are you seriously suggesting for example that fuel efficiency at 5mph is greater than at 50mph? As I said, I believe the optimal speed is around 56, but I may be wrong. Certainly driving at 90 mph will very obviously be less efficient than at 70, however I would expect that 30 would be less efficient than 50 as well.

p.s. I just checked, and the energy saving trust seem to agree with me, they state that the most efficient speed is 55-65 mph.

p.p.s. I just trawled through, and your argument over fuel efficiency was with earlstownflya (hope I got the spelling right), until you cocked up and started arguing against me presumably either thinking I was he, or thinking my comment about common sense related to fuel efficiency, when it was about the braking/ tailgating discussion I was involved in.

You're absolutely right, I somehow got you confused with earlestownflya.

Please accept my apology for that.

In answer to your post, yes I agree there are other factors that mean it's not a strict relationship between speed and efficiency, but certainly at c. 45+ it is
 

Dan B

Disengaged member
http://eartheasy.com/move_fuel_efficient_driving.html

First peak at around 30 mph, second at around 55. Not as simple as slower is more efficient.
For someone who was just telling us that statistics are 88% made up, you seem suddenly quite happy to accept them uncritically when they support your case ;-)

I have a few questions, because frankly I doubt it's nearly as simple as this graph makes out. Apart from rolling resistance and aero drag, the other things that are going to affect efficiency are (a) constant factors (e.g. pumps and whatnot that run all the time the engine is on); (b) the most efficient speeds for the engine. That being so, why are there only two peaks on this graph and not five?

The indicated source of the data is the EPA. According to teh interwebs, the EPA tests are conducted on a rolling road (1) at a constant 56mph; (2) using a simulated "urban cycle" which is stop-start driving between 0 and 30. In other words, they're probably not even testing driving at constant speeds under 30mph using the appropriate gear for driving at that speed, all their data points at low speed are measuring consumption under acceleration. Which is going to be much less fuel-efficient. Incidentally if you built a similar graph from "crowd-sourced" vehicle telemetry data you'd probably still get the same problem, because who drives at a steady 20mph for any length of time?

ftpdds.gif

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

I'd also be interested to know how much the constant factors actually account for: if you put headlights and AC and radio on, low speed driving is going to look worse. Things like the fuel pump, these days, ought to be PWM and therefore vary with engine speed. Cooling fans - 10A when it's on? 120W, so about the same as headlights...
 

bozmandb9

Insert witty title here
For someone who was just telling us that statistics are 88% made up, you seem suddenly quite happy to accept them uncritically when they support your case ;-)

I have a few questions, because frankly I doubt it's nearly as simple as this graph makes out. Apart from rolling resistance and aero drag, the other things that are going to affect efficiency are (a) constant factors (e.g. pumps and whatnot that run all the time the engine is on); (b) the most efficient speeds for the engine. That being so, why are there only two peaks on this graph and not five?

The indicated source of the data is the EPA. According to teh interwebs, the EPA tests are conducted on a rolling road (1) at a constant 56mph; (2) using a simulated "urban cycle" which is stop-start driving between 0 and 30. In other words, they're probably not even testing driving at constant speeds under 30mph using the appropriate gear for driving at that speed, all their data points at low speed are measuring consumption under acceleration. Which is going to be much less fuel-efficient. Incidentally if you built a similar graph from "crowd-sourced" vehicle telemetry data you'd probably still get the same problem, because who drives at a steady 20mph for any length of time?

ftpdds.gif

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml

I'd also be interested to know how much the constant factors actually account for: if you put headlights and AC and radio on, low speed driving is going to look worse. Things like the fuel pump, these days, ought to be PWM and therefore vary with engine speed. Cooling fans - 10A when it's on? 120W, so about the same as headlights...
Bloody hell, can't win can I. Well they are, and they'll show whatever you want, as you've proven, but I'll tell you what. You drive everywhere at 2 miles an hour, and enjoy wonderful fuel economy, and as least it'll keep you offline a lot longer. I'll carry on driving at a sensible efficient speed, and have more time to ride! ;-)
 

Glow worm

Legendary Member
Location
Near Newmarket
If some loon is up you're chuff pull over when it's safe and allow them on their way. Pound to a penny they'll end up in a world of hurt sooner or later, that's what happens to twats.

And sometimes sooner than you'd think. I had one on the A14 last week, a Volvo was desperately trying to get into my boot. I pulled over (was doing about 70) and the idiot roared off at I'd say well over 90 - straight past a police speed trap in a lay-by. Brilliant ! :laugh:
 
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