Wife has agreed to let me have a dog! now trying to decide what breed...

[Mad Doug Biker]

Go for a Collie...they well cool...this is my pooch....though hes a lab collie cross...a top dog for your location and your kids View attachment 31269

They are very intelligent and get bored quickly without lots of stimulation. They were working dogs for a reason.

 

[MichaelM]

Really?

Its you, the family..... A dog will substitute the humans and possibly other animals around it in place of other dogs becuase they need structure, they need to have a place, its basic Canine Psychology and has nothing about asserting your dominance or even being violent to a dog, etc as you seem to allude too. Its about doing it in a non agressive manner.
Our dogs have always been treated as equals, but at the same time, they clearly can't always be equal and have to know when they are being trained or shut out a room for some reason or something similar. I doubt dogs have ever really grasped Hippyish ideas like no dicipline TBH.

Of course, being the hand that feeds also helps!

I agree that it has nothing to do with dominance, but when Puddles states:

When I say dominance I mean vying for their place in the pack.

alongside his earlier comments such as "wrestling to become the dominant one", or "don't play "tug of war" as this to them is a dominating game." then I'll dispute them.

 

[Puddles]

I agree that it has nothing to do with dominance, but when Puddles states:



alongside his earlier comments such as "wrestling to become the dominant one", or "don't play "tug of war" as this to them is a dominating game." then I'll dispute them.

Dispute them then rather than being rude and simply saying you are wrong expand say why you disagree with me and many others who hold the same view. Then perhaps others can read information and decide for themselves. I said I did not wish to debate this with you, I notice that you resorted to arrogant dismissive comments, rather than enlightening those that you think I am misleading with misinformation so enlighten them, but, please do not think I am about to debate this further with you.

http://www.cesarsway.com/training/affection/Tug-of-War-with-Your-Dog

http://www.cesarsway.com/askcesar/overexcitement/How-rough-is-too-rough

http://www.canismajor.com/dog/play1.html

http://leerburg.com/dominac2.htm

I was saying this to the OP who admits he is inexperienced with dogs and I also suggested he go to training with the dog so he learns what he needs to learn.

I have never mistreated and animal I have never on this thread suggested someone take a dogs food away and I am highly offended by your implication that because of two comments I practice mistreatment in any manner.

I am also a "she"

 

[MichaelM]

Dispute them then rather than being rude and simply saying you are wrong expand say why you disagree with me and many others who hold the same view. Then perhaps others can read information and decide for themselves. I said I did not wish to debate this with you, I notice that you resorted to arrogant dismissive comments, rather than enlightening those that you think I am misleading with misinformation so enlighten them, but, please do not think I am about to debate this further with you.

http://www.cesarsway.com/training/affection/Tug-of-War-with-Your-Dog

http://www.cesarsway.com/askcesar/overexcitement/How-rough-is-too-rough

I was saying this to the OP who admits he is inexperienced with dogs and I also suggested he go to training with the dog so he learns what he needs to learn.

I have never mistreated and animal I have never on this thread suggested someone take a dogs food away and I am highly offended by your implication that because of two comments I practice mistreatment in any manner.

I am also a "she"

Apologies for referring to you as "he"!

I dismissed your comments as it seemed you weren't willing to discuss them further... but since you post a couple of C.M. links, here's one of him dealing with a dog with food issues (the dog bites him on two occasions).

Believie it or not, I don't actually dislike C.M., but I don't agree with some of what he does (Alpha rolls, heel kicks...). That dog is actually communicating with him a lot before he bites...

 

[Puddles]

Apologies for referring to you as "he"!

I dismissed your comments as it seemed you weren't willing to discuss them further... but since you post a couple of C.M. links, here's one of him dealing with a dog with food issues (the dog bites him on two occasions).

Believie it or not, I don't actually dislike C.M., but I don't agree with some of what he does (Alpha rolls, heel kicks...). That dog is actually communicating with him a lot before he bites...

And? this dismisses my comments on play fighting with dogs and playing tug of war with dogs how? and my opinion about dogs becoming part of a human pack how?

 

[MichaelM]

On what evidence, Michael?

Puddles has posted a couple of C.M. links - I'll assume you're familiar with C.M. and how he describes dog behaviour in terms of the Wolfpack with the Alpha wolf being the dominant leader who asserts his dominance through rolling his subordinates (what he describes as the Alpha roll)...

In the first half of the 20th century, Schenkel studied wolves and published his findings (full report available here. He observed that wolves live in a hierarchical society with the Alpha being the dominant wolf. David Mech later popularised this idea in one of his early books.

And so the idea spread... dogs are descended from wolves. Wolves live in a hierarchical society, and so "we" must dominate our dogs to let them know who's boss.

Neither Schenkel or Mech suggested that dominance "theory" applied to domestic dogs, but the idea spread and it somehow became "common knowledge".

The wolves that Schenkel studied were not a wild wolf pack living in their natural environment, but captive, made up of individuals captured from different locations. Modern studies have shown that wolves live in family groups with the parents being at the head of the family.

David Mech later withdrew his support of the idea that wolves live a hierarchical society and discusses this here:

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tNtFgdwTsbU


The idea of a dog vying for dominance as that's what they do in wild is based on a false premise, it has no basis in reality.

Also, Schenkel misinterpreted the behaviour of the wolves he studied with regards to "pinning" others to the ground - one animal will roll onto its back as a gesture of appeasement, it hasn't been rolled (see John Fisher "Think Dog")

Dogs are not wolves, they are by now a separate species. Even the most "wolf like" (or wolf shaped dogs if you like) e.g. GSD, Husky etc have diverged significantly from the wolf - smaller skulls, smaller brains, a male dog once mature may remain fertile all its life whereas a male wolf will only be fertile during the mating season (Kreeger 2003 cited in Barry Eaton's "Dominance in Dogs"), a wolf bitch will only have one oestrous cycle a year so that the pups are born in the spring (Kreeger 2003, Packard 2003, again cited by Eaton).

John Bradshaw founded and is the director of the Anthrzoology Institute at Bristol University. He is the author of "In Defence Of Dogs" which brings all these ideas together.

 

[M1ke]

This is Billy our new English Springer Spaniel puppy. He is 9 weeks old. We already have a Chocolate Labrador. I can highly recommend both breeds which are super intelligent and really easy to train.

Billy! English Springer Spaniel. by mmayson, on Flickr

Billy! English Springer Spaniel. by mmayson, on Flickr

 

[MichaelM]

And? this dismisses my comments on play fighting with dogs and playing tug of war with dogs how? and my opinion about dogs becoming part of a human pack how?

You're quoting C.M. as support of your belief in "dominance theory", I'm pointing out that he's not a knowledgeable as you'd have me believe.

I've posted above as to why the ideas of dominance are flawed. I find the idea that a dog will try to gain dominance over the owner/a family member quite ridiculous as they don't try to raise their status or "place in the pack". It's difficult to discuss it though as you throw out a few vague terms e.g. "gain dominance" but then refuse to expand further.

 

[Puddles]

You're quoting C.M. as support of your belief in "dominance theory", I'm pointing out that he's not a knowledgeable as you'd have me believe.

I've posted above as to why the ideas of dominance are flawed. I find the idea that a dog will try to gain dominance over the owner/a family member quite ridiculous as they don't try to raise their status or "place in the pack". It's difficult to discuss it though as you throw out a few vague terms e.g. "gain dominance" but then refuse to expand further.

So your opinion is you should play tug of war with dogs and also play fight with them even as an in-experienced dog owner and my opinion is you should not as an in-experienced dog owner.

See a whole lot easier and clearer than arguing over terms used

 

[kerndog]

You are of course referring to my comments aimed at Puddles.

I could write a brief overview of the history behind dominance theory if you are genuinely intrested.

Hi - I'd be really keen to hear what you have to say

Thanks!

Edit - I just carried on reading and see that you've already laid out some interesting info, as has Puddles. Lots to read and think on. thanks to the both of you, even if your not really enjoying the interaction I'm getting some useful info, so thanks

 

[Crackle]

I played wrestling and tug of war with my dog. Still do.

 

[MichaelM]

So your opinion is you should play tug of war with dogs and also play fight with them even as an in-experienced dog owner and my opinion is you should not as an in-experienced dog owner.

See a whole lot easier and clearer than arguing over terms used

You say won't discuss it but keep coming back...

Ah, then my advice is don't get a dog until your child can be trusted not to take things too far, sorry I know I am being really harsh but having been in rescue for many years I have seen too many dogs re-homed, having issues or children bitten caused by things going to far. "Wrestling" to a dog is looking for dominance, even as puppies they "wrestle" to practice becoming the dominant one, another reason why with certain breeds you don't play "tug of war" as this to them is a dominating game.

What exactly do you mean by the statements I've highlighted above?

By linking to C.M., I'm under the impression that you subscribe to his ideal of dominance.

Play fighting - I wouldn't recommend, dog might become too aroused and begin mouthing. Although dogs have very good bite inhibition, it's not a good habit to get into.

Tug of war - ever seen agility competitors geeing up their dogs?

 

[welsh dragon]

Some people dont know when enougn is enough, or when it is time to give it a rest............ why don't you take your soap box home.

 

[MichaelM]

Hi - I'd be really keen to hear what you have to say

Thanks!

Edit - I just carried on reading and see that you've already laid out some interesting info, as has Puddles. Lots to read and think on. thanks to the both of you, even if your not really enjoying the interaction I'm getting some useful info, so thanks

John Fisher's "Think Dog" is a good read with regards to how dogs view our actions.

Why would you pay any more attention to a book that I recommend by Fisher than a book written by Cesar Milan? Read both and decide for yourself.

John Fisher was the founder of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers and was also a founding member of theAssociation of Pet Behaviour Counsellors

Here's an article by a member of the APBC - a former Police dog handler who in the past believed he should dominate his dogs but later changed his opinion.

 

[Puddles]

You say won't discuss it but keep coming back...



What exactly do you mean by the statements I've highlighted above?

By linking to C.M., I'm under the impression that you subscribe to his ideal of dominance.

Play fighting - I wouldn't recommend, dog might become too aroused and begin mouthing. Although dogs have very good bite inhibition, it's not a good habit to get into.

Tug of war - ever seen agility competitors geeing up their dogs?

I said I will not debate, there is a difference.

I refer you to my previous comments which is what I meant by those statements amended to reflect your current stance

So your opinion is you should play tug of war with dogs even as an in-experienced dog owner and my opinion is you should not as an in-experienced dog owner.

I do not consider agility competitors to be in-experienced dog owners.

See we are getting somewhere now we have agreed on one point is it all so much clearer now?