Winter Strength training

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Where's it going? I'm just asking you to explain what you said. If you come out with this stuff, you ought to be able to explain it.
I have allready established what your aim in life is from a previous thread - someone who goes on CC looking for an argument - if you dont
understand what i have said what is the point in continuing with this thread - from the resent conversations you obviously know exactly what i am talking
about - I am too long in the tooth to be fooled by the likes of you - now run away and play.
 
And so beginneth another 16-page thread on strength training for endurance cyclists.... ;)

Seriously, I don't know if you have researched this at all - but there is very little evidence to equate improved leg strength to improve cycling performance. Go to the gym if you like, but don't go there on the expectation of improving your cycling fitness.
I see you have done it again - critical critical critical - but no construction -- tut tut
 
I have allready established what your aim in life is from a previous thread - someone who goes on CC looking for an argument - if you dont
understand what i have said what is the point in continuing with this thread - from the resent conversations you obviously know exactly what i am talking
about - I am too long in the tooth to be fooled by the likes of you - now run away and play.

I do understand what you have said. But unfortunately, what you have said is materially incorrect. The fact that you won't (or can't) explain yourself kind of sums it up. It's a shame you can't reply in a more cordial manner.

I see you have done it again - critical critical critical - but no construction -- tut tut

ok - unsuprisingly, you're not making any sense. Perhaps you could stay off the thread now and leave it to those who actually have some clue what they are talking about.
 
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VamP

Banned
Location
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I have allready established what your aim in life is from a previous thread - someone who goes on CC looking for an argument - if you dont
understand what i have said what is the point in continuing with this thread - from the resent conversations you obviously know exactly what i am talking
about - I am too long in the tooth to be fooled by the likes of you - now run away and play.

Sorry dude, but you're the one who's sounding like you don't have anything constructive to add. If you want to put forward a fairly controversial proposition demonstrating that cycling is in fact a strength sport, then you should be able to a) bring some evidence, and b) be prepared to defend it robustly. It seems that you are prepared for neither.
 

Venod

Eh up
Location
Yorkshire
Sorry dude, but you're the one who's sounding like you don't have anything constructive to add. If you want to put forward a fairly controversial proposition demonstrating that cycling is in fact a strength sport, then you should be able to a) bring some evidence, and b) be prepared to defend it robustly. It seems that you are prepared for neither.

I don't think cycling is a strength sport neither does madpensioner, he is saying you need strength as well as stamina and speed which is true ie you need a certain amount of leg strength to weight ratio to get up that hill quicker than the next guy, you can get up the hill with high cadence but weather that is quicker than the guy pushing a higher gear (maybe strong enough to push the higher gear at high cadence) is a whole other argument, I have not read anything of substance from Dusty Bin and I do think he is coming across as arguing for arguing s sake.

Have a read of this as another point of view.

http://www.thetallcyclist.com/2013/02/myths-about-weight-lifting-and-cycling/
 

Rob3rt

Man or Moose!
Location
Manchester
I don't think cycling is a strength sport neither does madpensioner, he is saying you need strength as well as stamina and speed which is true ie you need a certain amount of leg strength to weight ratio to get up that hill quicker than the next guy, you can get up the hill with high cadence but weather that is quicker than the guy pushing a higher gear (maybe strong enough to push the higher gear at high cadence) is a whole other argument, I have not read anything of substance from Dusty Bin and I do think he is coming across as arguing for arguing s sake.

Have a read of this as another point of view.

http://www.thetallcyclist.com/2013/02/myths-about-weight-lifting-and-cycling/

Strength is not equal to power, do not confuse the two. You need to have a higher POWER to weight ratio to go up hills quicker than the next guy. Not higher strength. Power can be generated in more than one way, additionally, some ways of generating power are more efficient than others.

Absolute strength is of little concern for an endurance cyclist.
 

Venod

Eh up
Location
Yorkshire
Strength is not equal to power, do not confuse the two. You need to have a higher POWER to weight ratio to go up hills quicker than the next guy. Not higher strength. Power can be generated in more than one way, additionally, some ways of generating power are more efficient than others.

Absolute strength is of little concern for an endurance cyclist.

Yes I agree and reading my post I can see the reason for your reply, but strength does play a part (that's what Madpensioner was saying) as Power = Strength x Speed.
 

Rob3rt

Man or Moose!
Location
Manchester
Yes I agree and reading my post I can see the reason for your reply, but strength does play a part (that's what Madpensioner was saying) as Power = Strength x Speed.

Strength does play a part, there is no way to get around that, however, the degree to which it plays a part and thus the degree to which you ought to worry about/focus on it is the quandary. Ultimately, unless you are particularly puny (as in you are unable to walk up stairs or get out of a chair) or for other reasons such as physical imbalance or whatever, then you should be able to get all the necessary "strength" training required on the bike by simply riding your bike at various intensities. Given than most people have limited time to train, then it is more efficient to train on the bike. Especially since weight training often influences how well you can perform bike sessions in the following days.

At the end of the day, riding a bike, even riding a bike fast, is a series of many hundreds/thousands of hugely sub-maximal repetitions, even in short efforts. Take for example, a 3 minute Hill Climb, in 'The Rake' Hill Climb (very steep) i.e. a race (in which I was so farked, I had to be removed from my bike at the end), I averaged 75rpm for ~3.25 minutes, that is a single set of ~244 reps. On the 'Peaslows' HC, I did ~246 reps. In the National HC Champ's (a longer climb than the other two), ~808 reps. You can see, even from these basic numbers how absolutely sub-maximal each rep is. For reference (and incase anyone wants to work out the torque values), the average power for the above races was 496W, 492W & 398W respectively. I use 175mm cranks. Racing weight was 76kg.

This is not to say that strength or weight training has no benefit to general health etc, because, clearly it does! Especially for those partaking in none weight baring sports and those cracking on a bit.
 
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VamP

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Yes I agree and reading my post I can see the reason for your reply, but strength does play a part (that's what Madpensioner was saying) as Power = Strength x Speed.

It's aerobic power we are after Afnug, the amount of strength required is very low. Less than what you need to be able to walk up steps. So adding more strength beyond that does not help with the power generation. The only cyclists who benefit from weight training for leg strength are track sprinters, and even there the benefits of weight training do not translate easily to performance.

@Dusty Bin has already explained this, so I am not sure why you are singling him out as being unconstructive.

The Tall Cyclist link you brought BTW is nonsense. He's clearly of the 'cardio burns muscle' persuasion. He provides no evidence (and can't spell).
 
Yes I agree and reading my post I can see the reason for your reply, but strength does play a part (that's what Madpensioner was saying) as Power = Strength x Speed.

Your definition of power is wrong. Power is defined as the rate at which work is done, or the rate at which energy is transferred - look it up. The majority of the population - whether cyclists or not - already have sufficient 'leg strength' to win the TdF. Whether they also have the required aerobic capacity and highly-developed CV fitness is another matter.

'madpensioner' did state that 'a 100 mile road race would involve a high degree of leg strength' - the truth is it would not require any additional 'leg strength' beyond the capability of someone with normal leg function.
 

Venod

Eh up
Location
Yorkshire
It's aerobic power we are after Afnug, the amount of strength required is very low. Less than what you need to be able to walk up steps. So adding more strength beyond that does not help with the power generation. The only cyclists who benefit from weight training for leg strength are track sprinters, and even there the benefits of weight training do not translate easily to performance.

@Dusty Bin has already explained this, so I am not sure why you are singling him out as being unconstructive.

The Tall Cyclist link you brought BTW is nonsense. He's clearly of the 'cardio burns muscle' persuasion. He provides no evidence (and can't spell).

I will have to disagree if you can't raise enough strength to walk upstairs you won't be able to generate enough power to ride the bike comfortably, I didn't say Dusty Bin was unconstructive I said I had not seen anything of substance from him. Madpensioner was not saying cycling is a strength sport he was saying its part of the equation as I have pointed out, Power = Strength x Speed, I agree its aerobic power that matters most but strength still has to be in the equation and again refering to Madpensioner it depends on the individual how much strength V speed produces the best power output for that individual.
 
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I will have to disagree if you can't raise enough strength to walk upstairs you won't be able to generate enough power to ride the bike comfortably, I didn't say Dusty Bin was unconstructive I said I had not seen anything of substance from him. Madpensioner was not saying cycling is a strength sport he was saying its part of the equation as I have pointed out, Power = Strength x Speed, I agree its aerobic power that matters most but strength still has to be in the equation and again refereeing to Madpensioner it depends on the individual how much strength V speed produces the best power output for that individual.

Like I said earlier - your definition of power is just plain wrong. If you disagree about the leg strength issue, you obviously need to do some more reading on the issue. And if you have missed my substance on the issue, then you clearly haven't bothered to read the thread, or the other identical thread on this page.
 

VamP

Banned
Location
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I will have to disagree if you can't raise enough strength to walk upstairs you won't be able to generate enough power to ride the bike comfortably, I didn't say Dusty Bin was unconstructive I said I had not seen anything of substance from him. Madpensioner was not saying cycling is a strength sport he was saying its part of the equation as I have pointed out, Power = Strength x Speed, I agree its aerobic power that matters most but strength still has to be in the equation and again refereeing to Madpensioner it depends on the individual how much strength V speed produces the best power output for that individual.

Take a deep breath, have a think about what you are trying to say, and start again. :hello:
 

Venod

Eh up
Location
Yorkshire
Like I said earlier - your definition of power is just plain wrong. If you disagree about the leg strength issue, you obviously need to do some more reading on the issue. And if you have missed my substance on the issue, then you clearly haven't bothered to read the thread, or the other identical thread on this page.

Would you care to read the article in the link, and what makes you an expert ?

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/General_Physiology/Measuring_Power_and_Using_the_Data_302.html
 

Rob3rt

Man or Moose!
Location
Manchester
I will have to disagree if you can't raise enough strength to walk upstairs you won't be able to generate enough power to ride the bike comfortably, I didn't say Dusty Bin was unconstructive I said I had not seen anything of substance from him. Madpensioner was not saying cycling is a strength sport he was saying its part of the equation as I have pointed out, Power = Strength x Speed, I agree its aerobic power that matters most but strength still has to be in the equation and again refereeing to Madpensioner it depends on the individual how much strength V speed produces the best power output for that individual.

Your definition of power requires some revision/clarification. If you are going to use analogous terms, you need to point this out and explain why you think this is correct.
 
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