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I think I know what they are saying. With the current draft - you travel much faster in a group than you would solo for the same wattage - but you don't feel the draft effect when you are in the bunch. This seems to have the effect that if say the riders in the group are putting out 250W, they would catch a lone rider in front putting out the same or less watts which is not how it works irl.
If the new draft has corrected this - then that is why breakaways will be much more likely to happen and to succeed.
Hope so.
If the new draft has corrected this - then that is why breakaways will be much more likely to happen and to succeed.
Hope so.
berty bassett
Legendary Member
- Location
- I'boro
yeh - not sure how this will help - if they make it easier then you pedal harder to make it the same as before - as will everybody else !
<Tommy>
Illegitimi non carborundum
- Location
- Camden, London
The argument they are using is that if the draft effect is higher it will take you less effort to stay in the draft, therefore giving you more of a chance to recover. So in principle a smaller group can travel faster than it does now if everyone works as team.
But... this will also be the case for the larger group, who will also have more participants to share load. So the status quo remains....
If we use longer road races as an example, well performed breakaways do work on occasion. But... generally over a much longer distance, with team organisation, and with a completely different dynamic to Zwift races I.e a controlled start with a slow ramping of speed as opposed to break neck speed from the start. Although if Zwift or someone else organises closed races which are team events it could become very interesting over time.
Yeah I'm just not sure everyone in the group will rest more, or just do similar effort to now but just go faster? I think I would do the latter because I know what kind of effort I can sustain for up to an hour (most races) and as I'm doing it for a workout why would I want to put less effort in just to still lose in the sprint anyway?!
We'll just have to wait and see I guess
<Tommy>
Illegitimi non carborundum
- Location
- Camden, London
Both would be my guess. The group only goes as fast as the man at the front. And he only goes faster if he has had more chance of recovery through increased drafting capacity. This is provided by the larger margin between effort required at the front vs effort required in the pack that the new algorithm offers.
Like you say though, how this equates to total effort throughout the session only time will tell. Like I say, I think it becomes more relevant the more organised the race is eg team races. Escpecially at the higher levels where competitors are more familiar with each other because the player pool is smaller.
This is the bit I'm a bit unsure of in the way Zwift does their draft effect - it almost feels like the whole group gets a speed boost including the guy in front I have been solo chasing to re-catch a group a few times and my w/kg have been way higher than the leader of the group and I still can't catch up. IRL you only have to go a little quicker than the guy in front to catch up with the group - doesn't seem so in Zwift?
bobinski
Legendary Member
- Location
- Tulse Hill
Wow. That got you lot, especially Tommy, excited
Gawd knows how they manage the draft in huge groups - it must be quite complicated especially in real time.My understanding is that as the number of racers increased and some came to criticise the draft Zwift actually increased it. A few noticed. Some complained it was too strong now. But there is nothing I read in that Kiss post that suggests it will be any easier for a breakaway to stay away, in fact the opposite?
In real life isn’t it the case breaks only get away when the peloton allows or is too slow to react?
Gawd knows how they manage the draft in huge groups - it must be quite complicated especially in real time.My understanding is that as the number of racers increased and some came to criticise the draft Zwift actually increased it. A few noticed. Some complained it was too strong now. But there is nothing I read in that Kiss post that suggests it will be any easier for a breakaway to stay away, in fact the opposite?
In real life isn’t it the case breaks only get away when the peloton allows or is too slow to react?
<Tommy>
Illegitimi non carborundum
- Location
- Camden, London
You’ve got a ton more experience on Zwift Paul. My racing experience is very limited so I defo defer to your greater knowledge on that. That example you give could be very anecdotal though. We need to know both yours and the guy in fronts weight to compare relative w/kg. As it might be that making the difference?
I would say that in the real world, if two people have the same aero profile, it will take the guy pushing through the air approximately 30% more effort to make the same speed as the guy drafting. So that says how much effort you need to re connect with the back of a group. Remember how it felt in Cambridge when you slipped off the back? And you’re doing that solo where as the guy at the front of the group can be slipping in and out of draft presumably.
<Tommy>
Illegitimi non carborundum
- Location
- Camden, London
Wow. That got you lot, especially Tommy, excited
Gawd knows how they manage the draft in huge groups - it must be quite complicated especially in real time.My understanding is that as the number of racers increased and some came to criticise the draft Zwift actually increased it. A few noticed. Some complained it was too strong now. But there is nothing I read in that Kiss post that suggests it will be any easier for a breakaway to stay away, in fact the opposite?
In real life isn’t it the case breaks only get away when the peloton allows or is too slow to react?
Excited is probably the wrong word. Helping avoid doing paper work is prob more to the point
Yes with breakaways in real life. Often they happen when the breakaway can attack at a power level far higher than the peloton is currently doing. On Zwift where everyone seems to be close to the limit from the get go, and on shorter distance races, it seems optimistic.
bobinski
Legendary Member
- Location
- Tulse Hill
Excited is probably the wrong word. Helping avoid doing paper work is prob more to the point
Yes with breakaways in real life. Often they happen when the breakaway can attack at a power level far higher than the peloton is currently doing. On Zwift where everyone seems to be close to the limit from the get go, and on shorter distance races, it seems optimistic.
Glad to have helped
Agree.
As I see it, it should be easier for a mid-B rider like me to latch on to the top-B riders. If I'm not starting a small hill in dark-red zone, there's a better chance I could make it over the top without getting dropped.
The strong guys would need longer hills to drop the weaker riders.
The strong guys would need longer hills to drop the weaker riders.
bobinski
Legendary Member
- Location
- Tulse Hill
bobinski
Legendary Member
- Location
- Tulse Hill
