2 more women die in London

[Tin Pot]

Is your second paragraph trying to say you think there is the same happening re the female cyclists?

My second paragraph is saying exactly what it is saying:

'Domestic violence is no longer approached from a "what was she doing wrong" point of view, perhaps the same should be the case when it comes to killing them with cars'

Is there a part of this statement that you disagree with?

 

[mjr]

How strong is that correlation really though? It seems strong, in the way this is reported. Does it mean anything significant for women's behaviour around tipper trucks, and tipper truck drivers' behaviour around female cyclists? Or is it really just a not-meaningful statistical blip?

Querying the 2015 database, three women cyclists were killed in collisions in London with vehicle type 20 "Goods over 3.5t. and under 7.5t" and three by vehicle type 21 "Goods 7.5 tonnes mgw and over". The three men cyclists were killed in collisions with type 20, type 9 "Car" and type 1 "Pedal cycle", one each.

("select Accident_Index,Vehicle_Type from Vehicles where Accident_Index in (select Accident_Index from Casualties where Casualty_Type = 1 and Sex_of_Casualty = 2 and Casualty_Severity = 1) and Accident_Index in (select Accident_Index from Accidents where Police_Force in (1,48));")

Is this a statistical blip? Hard to say for 2015 London fatalities alone because the numbers are so small. If we assume that it's basically random what the outcome is (big assumption) and look at all reported casualties (so drop the Casualty_Severity constraint) and group by vehicle type, we see this:

• 1 Pedal cycles: 1012
• 2 Motorcycle 50cc and under: 4
• 3 Motorcycle 125cc and under: 27
• 4 Motorcycle over 125cc and up to 500cc: 4
• 5 Motorcycle over 500cc: 9
• 8 Taxi/Private hire car: 85
• 9 Car: 648
• 10 Minibus (8 - 16 passenger seats): 2
• 11 Bus or coach (17 or more pass seats): 18 (2%)
• 19 Van / Goods 3.5 tonnes mgw or under: 104 (10%)
• 20 Goods over 3.5t. and under 7.5t: 21 (2%)
• 21 Goods 7.5 tonnes mgw and over: 27 (3%)
• 90 Other vehicle: 1
• (Total collisions: 992 )

Similar for male cyclists:

• 1 Pedal cycles: 3507
• 2 Motorcycle 50cc and under: 9
• 3 Motorcycle 125cc and under: 52
• 4 Motorcycle over 125cc and up to 500cc: 10
• 5 Motorcycle over 500cc: 33
• 8 Taxi/Private hire car: 274
• 9 Car: 2453
• 10 Minibus (8 - 16 passenger seats): 4
• 11 Bus or coach (17 or more pass seats): 84 (2%)
• 19 Van / Goods 3.5 tonnes mgw or under: 329 (9%)
• 20 Goods over 3.5t. and under 7.5t: 40 (1%)
• 21 Goods 7.5 tonnes mgw and over: 39 (1%)
• 90 Other vehicle: 16
• 98 Goods vehicle - unknown weight: 3
• (Total collisions: 3485 )

I've gone back and added rough %s for the main large classes and it looks like they're within a few percent.

Well, as it's cheap now, repeating it for KSIs, it seems like 22 of the four main large classes are involved in 144 women cyclist KSI collisions (15%) but 62 in 613 for men (10%). So in crude terms it seems only slightly higher in all collisions, but well out of whack for KSIs. (Edit: in other words, that previous big assumption may well be shoot. )

On the supposition that there might (or might not) be some correlation between driver behaviour towards male and female cyclists - how easy is it to tell whether a cyclist you are approaching is male or female?

Womens bikes are pink, aren't they? (runs and hides)

The victims tend to be young, foreign women whom I, rightly or wrong, judge to be inexperienced.

Nationality isn't recorded, but age is, so here's London women cyclist KSIs (as that's the largest obvious subset where things go disproportionate IMO - see above) from the 2105 database:

• 11-15: 1
• 21-25: 7
• 26-35: 24
• 36-45: 17
• 46-55: 14
• 56-65: 5
• 66-75: 2
• Missing: 4

If anything (edit: based on what I remember about general UK demographics, London being skewed slightly younger than UK averages and cycling participation being roughly uniform except for the youngest and few oldest bands...), I'd say that young women are underrepresented there. Older ones, too. Limiting it to those KSId in collisions with large vehicles (types 11,19,20,21):

• 11-15: 1
• 21-25: 3
• 26-35: 7
• 36-45: 3
• 46-55: 7
• 56-65: 1

So if anything, they're less young, aren't they?

Edited to add: limiting it to those killed in collisions with large vehicles:

• 26-35: 6
• 36-45: 1
• 46-55: 1

Well, that's surprising, but the numbers are getting rather small. Anyone got time to load in more years?

Right. I'm getting too close to these numbers and have finished my coffee! HTH BBL

 

[mjr]

People here seem to be talking about a small part of central London, not Enfield.

Quick note: I've been limiting it to the Met and City police areas when querying the database. To limit to central London, I'd want long/lat max/min values.

 

[Blue Hills]

The damaging distraction is squealing 'sexist' at any attempt to consider gender as part of the problem.

The next damaging distraction is squealing 'victim blaming' at any suggestion a cyclist has to take responsibility for his/her safety.

thank you pale rider for your eminently sensible reasonable post.
If have more time may return to address whether being foreign/young/recent arrival in London with possibly female thrown in might be a factor.Though stress will only be individual musings ~ can't claim science.

 

[PK99]

My second paragraph is saying exactly what it is saying:

'Domestic violence is no longer approached from a "what was she doing wrong" point of view, perhaps the same should be the case when it comes to killing them with cars'

Is there a part of this statement that you disagree with?

I don't know. Because I'm not sure what you mean to imply.

If you mean to imply a malign intent directed at female cyclists then I do disagree fundamentally.

There is clearly someting happening that is worthy of serious debate. Parallels with domestic violence are misplaced and damage open discussion.

 

[theclaud]

I don't know. Because I'm not sure what you mean to imply.

If you mean to imply a malign intent directed at female cyclists then I do disagree fundamentally.

There is clearly someting happening that is worthy of serious debate. Parallels with domestic violence are misplaced and damage open discussion.

Why not just deal with the words he actually wrote, which are about placing responsibility for killing and injuring women, by whatever means, with those who kill or injure them?

 

[theclaud]

Because actually dealing with the words other people write, and the intended meaning behind them is apparently not OK.

Its so last season.

 

[subaqua]

Going back to the incident.

I rode CS2 this morning.

Kings Ferry Coach pulling out of Whitechurch lane turning Left.
Tthe front of vehicle goes way into the opposite carriageway then swings back into the correct lane over the narrow zone you would be in if turning right into Osborn Street. I would have filmed but couldn't stop . the sad thing is that if the coaches didn't use whitechurch street they would use the much bigger junction of commercial rd and whitechapel high street.
That doesn't stop them blocking CS2 but it does mean that the risk of an incident would be lower. maybe its time for TfL to make that route down whitechurch "access Only"

maybe even LCC could even campaign for it. ( fat chance)

 

[spen666]

Going back to the incident.

I rode CS2 this morning.

Kings Ferry Coach pulling out of Whitechurch lane turning Left.
Tthe front of vehicle goes way into the opposite carriageway then swings back into the correct lane over the narrow zone you would be in if turning right into Osborn Street. I would have filmed but couldn't stop . the sad thing is that if the coaches didn't use whitechurch street they would use the much bigger junction of commercial rd and whitechapel high street.
That doesn't stop them blocking CS2 but it does mean that the risk of an incident would be lower. maybe its time for TfL to make that route down whitechurch "access Only"

maybe even LCC could even campaign for it. ( fat chance)

I have thought that for sometime. The Coaches ( and lorries) using that street are far too big to do it safely and it seems its an attempt to avoid the queue on Commercial Road heading to the lights at Whitechapel high Street.

I don't know why its not been resolved before now

 

[mjr]

I have thought that for sometime. The Coaches ( and lorries) using that street are far too big to do it safely and it seems its an attempt to avoid the queue on Commercial Road heading to the lights at Whitechapel high Street.

I don't know why its not been resolved before now

I've certainly seen old comments suggesting it while looking at that bit of CS2 in detail. Would someone in London use www.WriteToThem.com to ask their assembly member (I think) to act before someone else gets hurt? Commenting on websites is lovely and all, but commenting to government is more likely to change this.

 

[mjr]

Continuing this from the duplicate discussion...

It's not correct. If you look across all cyclist fatalities in London between 2006 and 2016 (for example) you'll find that the majority of those killed were men - around 2/3rds.

I'm such a sucker for this. Here's 5 years I can see easily:
2015 - 6 women, 3 men; (upthread)
2014 - 1 woman, 13 men; (met - city)
2013 - 5 women, 8 men;
2012 - 1 woman, 13 men;
2011 - 6 women, 10 men;
total - 19 women, 47 men... seems closer to 5/8ths than 2/3rds, but still a majority. So what are the other five years, are the pre-2011 (so pre-cycle-hire-and-superhighways) figures relevant to today and have male and female cycling rates developed at different rates?

 

[jonny jeez]

Why not just deal with the words he actually wrote, which are about placing responsibility for killing and injuring women, by whatever means, with those who kill or injure them?

To make that parallel, we need to understand who killed them. Who is to blame?

Who is it that we should place responsibility with?

Trying to understand that is the whole point of this thread.

 

[mjr]

If it's 19 women and 47 men in those 5 years then it's 29% women and 71% men.

Yep, good spot. Edited. I was switching between ratios (that I prefer) and fractions (that you used) and I suspect repunctuated without conversion at some point.

Care to share the 2016 numbers, where you were pulling from and defend your inclusion of pre-2011 numbers? If you'd got anything on London male and female cycling over time, that'd be the icing.

 

[steveindenmark]

There is some thought that male cyclists are able to get themselves and their bikes out of the way quicker than females, when danger looms unexpected. By riding up a kerb, for example.

I do not know how true this is. But it is a bit more realistic than drivers making female cyclists targets.

 

[theclaud]

To make that parallel, we need to understand who killed them. Who is to blame?

Who is it that we should place responsibility with?

Trying to understand that is the whole point of this thread.

Drivers in the one case, domestic abusers in the other. Killing people is the responsibility of those doing the killing.