Angry threats

[col]

No col. Go and read the other forums. I was being shouted at and abused for being a cyclist and daring to suggest that we deserved respect and a little room. I was also being accused of being a drink driver and for getting bus drivers sacked, all of which was slanderous and lies. Go and read the threads. You'll be surprised how little abuse related to road position.

But all cyclists dont ride in your style,or go by your ideals on cycling?,in an ideal world everyone would make allowances to all.But life isnt like that is it?And making your points on cycling,in the way you have been,instigated the reactions,not only on the road,but on the forums too,so it seems?So we have to start somewhere,and i try to,hence i dont get threatened,and a driver doesnt loose their temper,and i dont feel the need to show a cctv on the web,that was possibly caused by the way i cycled?Even though i agree with your reasons,and what you would like to happen for all cyclists,until the masses are educated about it,it could be seen as ignorant to other road users,hence the reaction?

 

[MERV]

I agree with a lot of reasons for riding in Primary all? the time and in a perfect world it would work.

 

[Origamist]

It's quite valid when you remember just how safe cycling is. We're talking about a very small risk that's being reduced still smaller by proper cyclecraft. The risk is so small that you'd likely only see the difference over a large number of cyclists in a recorded study. Perhaps it's a little like the difference between driving here in the UK, and in France. Quite a bit more dangerous in France, but not so as any one of us is likely to notice by ourselves. That small risk is still worth taking action over.

Where is the evidence that so called "proper cyclecraft" reduces risk? And more appositely, what is "proper" cyclecraft?

 

[col]

Yes but you claimed that I was shouted at more than most. Feel free to back this up, if you can!

ok,it seems that you are to me.

 

[BentMikey]

No Col, you're not getting threatened and abused on forums and youtube because you're not posting videos of people driving and behaving badly, and you're not up in the public eye through some news articles.

Your debate seems to be confusing this abuse with the quite different abuse that comes on the road.

You also seem to be losing sight of the fact that I (and I assume magnatom also) often let drivers through when it's safe for us to do so. I certainly get loads of goodwill when doing this, and I'm sure none of us would like to hold up drivers unnecessarily. After all most of us are drivers sometimes too.

 

[magnatom]

But all cyclists dont ride in your style,or go by your ideals on cycling?,in an ideal world everyone would make allowances to all.But life isnt like that is it?And making your points on cycling,in the way you have been,instigated the reactions,not only on the road,but on the forums too,so it seems?So we have to start somewhere,and i try to,hence i dont get threatened,and a driver doesnt loose their temper,and i dont feel the need to show a cctv on the web,that was possibly caused by the way i cycled?Even though i agree with your reasons,and what you would like to happen for all cyclists,until the masses are educated about it,it could be seen as ignorant to other road users,hence the reaction?

So how do we educate the masses. Would you suggest that we ride submissively until someone produces a huge advertising campaign that shows drivers what should happen, then all of a sudden drivers realise that they should allow us to cycle in the primary position, and within days all cyclists are cycling as they should, assertively. I suggest col (in the nicest possible way of course! ) that it is you who is not living in the real world. People learn through experience and repeated exposure. The more cyclists that cycle assertively, the more that drivers will realise that that is the norm and drive accordingly. It is drip, drip, drip, but over time things do change. That is reality.

 

[BentMikey]

Where is the evidence that so called "proper cyclecraft" reduces risk? And more appositely, what is "proper" cyclecraft?

You started this one before with Cab, who I seem to recall dispatched your argument rather well. Back then the ball was in your court to show how it doesn't work.

 

[magnatom]

You also seem to be losing sight of the fact that I (and I assume magnatom also) often let drivers through when it's safe for us to do so.

Absolutely, I don't post the videos, but it is a rare day for me not to have reason to thank drivers for their generosity and good driving.

 

[col]

I agree with a lot of reasons for riding in Primary all? the time and in a perfect world it would work.

I do to,if we were going the same speed,and were not holding anyone up.But unless we can do this,all we do is make a driver wonder why we are blocking there way,and tempers start,especialy if there is opertunity to let them pass and we dont.Really its as simple as that i think.

 

[domtyler]

But all cyclists dont ride in your style,or go by your ideals on cycling?,in an ideal world everyone would make allowances to all.But life isnt like that is it?And making your points on cycling,in the way you have been,instigated the reactions,not only on the road,but on the forums too,so it seems?So we have to start somewhere,and i try to,hence i dont get threatened,and a driver doesnt loose their temper,and i dont feel the need to show a cctv on the web,that was possibly caused by the way i cycled?Even though i agree with your reasons,and what you would like to happen for all cyclists,until the masses are educated about it,it could be seen as ignorant to other road users,hence the reaction?

The 'Cyclecraft' way of riding does not rely on motorists having read the book or studied the techniques. If you want proof that it works, take a look at every single report of a cyclist being in a collision and tell me how they were riding.

While it gives no guarantees, there will be far fewer "Cyclecraft" riders having been killed or seriously injured.

You may be scared of being driven into from behind and being shouted at or abused, but these things are very very rare, it is being doored, left hooked, cut up etc. that cause the damage and that is what good confident riding mitigates.

 

[Tetedelacourse]

It's quite valid when you remember just how safe cycling is. We're talking about a very small risk that's being reduced still smaller by proper cyclecraft. The risk is so small that you'd likely only see the difference over a large number of cyclists in a recorded study. Perhaps it's a little like the difference between driving here in the UK, and in France. Quite a bit more dangerous in France, but not so as any one of us is likely to notice by ourselves. That small risk is still worth taking action over.

Good to put it in context like that, good post. It would serve EVERYONE well to remember this; both those who follow Cyclecraft to the letter and those who don't.

What would be REALLY* interesting would be a study which tracks different styles of roadcraft across the same course at the same time of day, to see which style attracts the most aggression, perceived danger etc from motorists and other commuters. Say a cross-section of this forum's commuters, followed by a recording device of some sort... <drifts off into ponderdom>

* well, relatively

 

[Tetedelacourse]

Where is the evidence that so called "proper cyclecraft" reduces risk? And more appositely, what is "proper" cyclecraft?

My study is called for!

 

[BentMikey]

Good to put it in context like that, good post. It would serve EVERYONE well to remember this; both those who follow Cyclecraft to the letter and those who don't.

What would be REALLY* interesting would be a study which tracks different styles of roadcraft across the same course at the same time of day, to see which style attracts the most aggression, perceived danger etc from motorists and other commuters. Say a cross-section of this forum's commuters, followed by a recording device of some sort... <drifts off into ponderdom>

* well, relatively

LOL! Yes, I think that would be the key, measurement, because right now all the anger and aggression measurement is coming from perception, rather than real measured incidents.

I know my own experience: that my perceived level of aggressive driving and incidents went down after I started riding more assertively. (At first I too was a gutter nutter, not knowing any better).

 

[magnatom]

You started this one before with Cab, who I seem to recall dispatched your argument rather well. Back then the ball was in your court to show how it doesn't work.

Actually to some extent I think origamist is right in that we probably can't prove it. As I am sure you are aware origamist, this is a difficult area to study and produce conclusive results, especially because, as Bentmikey has pointed out, cycling is so safe to begin with. However, I would suggest that experience and knowledge counts for something. This is something that I would suggest that the people behind bikeability have.

In my own experience I find it works as well. Some of my earlier videos show me being squeezed on approach to a particular junction on a few occasions. I was riding in the secondary position on these occasions. I changed my riding after advice on here (some from bentmikey) so that I took the primary position earlier and I stopped having similar incidents. I find that if I am lazy on occasion and take a more submissive position that cars pass me closer.

 

[col]

So how do we educate the masses. Would you suggest that we ride submissively until someone produces a huge advertising campaign that shows drivers what should happen, then all of a sudden drivers realise that they should allow us to cycle in the primary position, and within days all cyclists are cycling as they should, assertively. I suggest col (in the nicest possible way of course! ) that it is you who is not living in the real world. People learn through experience and repeated exposure. The more cyclists that cycle assertively, the more that drivers will realise that that is the norm and drive accordingly. It is drip, drip, drip, but over time things do change. That is reality.

Good points,BUTin the nicest way possible,i think you need to see the reality.Those drip drip drips,are exactly that,in a massive ocean that doesnt even notice the difference.So how about this?let the schools at some point,and i know it could take a very long time,to start educating on this,instead of you sometimes getting threatened or squeezed of the road,or even knocked over by an incompetant driver,while your busy trying to educate the masses,because it will take you even longer to do this in my opinion,but the school way,i know eventually,is safer all round isnt it?