Are we being forced to go electric?

[Sallar55]

No more fossil fuels? A lot of byproducts are required for today's products.

 

[Chislenko]

I bet that bloke in a Tesla that got wiped out by a Range Rover last night wishes he had not gone to the charging station at 3.40 a.m.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

The electric car has just moved the local environmental problems elsewhere. Lithium recycling at the moment is too costly, they might have a change of mind according to VW. And with global temps rising water is an issue. Quick Google search below

The extraction process of lithium is very resource demanding and specifically uses a lot of water in the extraction process. It is estimated that 500,000 gallons of water is used to mine one metric ton of lithium.[9] With the world's leading country in production of lithium being Chile,[10] the lithium mines are in rural areas with an extremely diverse ecosystem.[11] In Chile’s Salar de Atacama, one of the driest places on earth, about 65% of the water is used to mine lithium; leaving many of the local farmers and members of the community to find water elsewhere.[12][13] Along with physical implications on the environment, working conditions can violate the standards of sustainable development goals. The work is in very dangerous conditions with children as young as seven participating.[14] Additionally, it is common for locals to be in conflict with the surrounding lithium mines. There have been many accounts of dead animals and ruined farms in the surrounding areas of many of these mines. In Tagong, a small town in Garzê Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture China, there are records of dead fish and large animals floating down some of the rivers near the Tibetan mines. After further investigation, researchers found that this may have been caused by leakage of evaporation pools that sit for months and sometimes even years.[15]

Finite resourceEdit​

While lithium ion batteries can be used as a part of sustainable solution, shifting all fossil fuel-powered devices to lithium based batteries might not be the Earth's best option. There is no scarcity yet, but it is a natural resource that can be depleted.[16] According to researchers at Volkswagen, there are about 14 million tons of lithium left, which corresponds to 165 times the production volume in 2018.[17]

​

Recycling​

Lithium production for batteries and also the huge amount of copper needed for wind turbines etc doesn't seem to get much press re the transition to EV's.

As you say the problem is simply being moved elsewhere. Saying that, we clearly need different ways of propelling transport as oil will eventually run out - but whether EV's are the right answer is a moot point.

Are their any overall gains/losses figures re environmental damage available that express the totality of the impact by shifting from ICE to EV that you are aware of?

I've struggled to find any.

I'm not anti-EV by any stretch but we do seem to have knee-jerked in a particular direction without understanding the full impact of the switch.

Same with wind turbines - 3 tons of copper in the generator, 15 tons copper (average) to route to grid, 10 tons of epoxy/kevlar/carbon fibre per blade so 30 tons in total, another 15 tons of non-recyclable plastic, 2500 tons of concrete and 900 tons of steel.

Hardly a green alternative and millions are being thrown up across the globe.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

The Guardian view on rare earths: mining them can’t cost the Earth


"Climate solutions – such as solar energy, wind energy and electric vehicles – depend on rare earth elements, which have unique magnetic and luminescent properties. The trouble is that their production and disposal is environmentally destructive. It is worrying, therefore, that the European Union this week said that it wants lower regulatory barriers to mining raw materials needed for a green transition.

To get to net zero, Europe will require up to 26 times the amount of rare earth metals in 2050 compared with today.

Mining for rare earth minerals generates large volumes of toxic and radioactive material.

Over the next three decades “we will need to mine more mineral ores than humans have extracted over the last 70,000 years”."


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...pc=U531&cvid=f905f20fb7914fed8784affebb74af76

 

[SpokeyDokey]

The Guardian view on rare earths: mining them can’t cost the Earth


"Climate solutions – such as solar energy, wind energy and electric vehicles – depend on rare earth elements, which have unique magnetic and luminescent properties. The trouble is that their production and disposal is environmentally destructive. It is worrying, therefore, that the European Union this week said that it wants lower regulatory barriers to mining raw materials needed for a green transition.

To get to net zero, Europe will require up to 26 times the amount of rare earth metals in 2050 compared with today.

Mining for rare earth minerals generates large volumes of toxic and radioactive material.

Over the next three decades “we will need to mine more mineral ores than humans have extracted over the last 70,000 years”."


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...pc=U531&cvid=f905f20fb7914fed8784affebb74af76

All gets filed under inconvenient truths.

Couple of months ago a friend described his BMW iX as 100% green to run - he was being serious too.

The car itself was quite nice, apart from the fugly grill, and felt far more luxurious than the Teslas I have been in (two performance 3's and the chubby little one just down the road from us not sure what the model is).

Just countering the Tesla love-fest on here.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Same with wind turbines - 3 tons of copper in the generator, 15 tons copper (average) to route to grid, 10 tons of epoxy/kevlar/carbon fibre per blade so 30 tons in total, another 15 tons of non-recyclable plastic, 2500 tons of concrete and 900 tons of steel.

Whilst not directly for those materials, ALL power generation requires these sorts of inputs.

I can't immediately find a comparison, but I would guess that the material inputs are roughly proportional to the capital costs, attached from Wiki

And of course, the extraction of fossil fuels also required huge material inputs; oil rigs, mining equipment, pipelines etc etc

So whilst the issues you quote are real, there's no reason to believe they're any worse than for other power generation options - and the high value items like copper are readily recyclable at end of life.

EVs are for sure not the answer, but they are also undoubtedly far more environmentally friendly than ICE cars.

Cycling is best of all, of course.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

rare earth metals

Rare earth metals, interestingly, aren't actually rare in the common meaning of the word.

From Wiki, my bold.


Despite their name, rare-earth elements are relatively plentiful in Earth's crust, with cerium being the 25th most abundant element at 68 parts per million, more abundant than copper. All isotopes of promethium are radioactive, and it does not occur naturally in the earth's crust, except for a trace amount generated by spontaneous fission of uranium 238. They are often found in minerals with thorium, and less commonly uranium. Because of their geochemical properties, rare-earth elements are typically dispersed and not often found concentrated in rare-earth minerals. Consequently, economically exploitable ore deposits are sparse (i.e. "rare").[6] The first rare-earth mineral discovered (1787) was gadolinite, a black mineral composed of cerium, yttrium, iron, silicon, and other elements. This mineral was extracted from a mine in the village of Ytterby in Sweden; four of the rare-earth elements bear names derived from this single location.

Just out of interest, not to minimise the entirely valid point you're making.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

Whilst not directly for those materials, ALL power generation requires these sorts of inputs.

I can't immediately find a comparison, but I would guess that the material inputs are roughly proportional to the capital costs, attached from Wiki

View attachment 658357
And of course, the extraction of fossil fuels also required huge material inputs; oil rigs, mining equipment, pipelines etc etc

So whilst the issues you quote are real, there's no reason to believe they're any worse than for other power generation options - and the high value items like copper are readily recyclable at end of life.

EVs are for sure not the answer, but they are also undoubtedly far more environmentally friendly than ICE cars.

Cycling is best of all, of course.

I think the 'undoubtedly' aspect of your post is debatable, especially if ALL issues are taken in to account. “we will need to mine more mineral ores than humans have extracted over the last 70,000 years”.


One example could be improvements to ICE fuel, which like the engine modifications, just about stopped dead the minute the ban was announced, which means emissions will be worse for decades while the changeover occurs, and EV's risk replacing current problems for future ones. Some manufacturers currently claim even lower emissions from ICE cars, which makes the lead in for the EV effects to kick in even longer.

There are also the consequences of the impact on emerging nations, both environmentally, economically and on individual health.

As others have mentioned, the current situation means that those fortunate enough to be able to afford an EV, are being subsidised by those that can't as prices rise to make up the short fall in fuel tax, and money for road improvements. That too has a variety of social and environmental impacts.

 

[Scottish Scrutineer]

Finite resource
While lithium ion batteries can be used as a part of sustainable solution, shifting all fossil fuel-powered devices to lithium based batteries might not be the Earth's best option. There is no scarcity yet, but it is a natural resource that can be depleted.[16] According to researchers at Volkswagen, there are about 14 million tons of lithium left, which corresponds to 165 times the production volume in 2018.[17]

Just to remind you Crude Oil is running out, the easy reserves are fewer and it contributes massively to global warming. We need to get off fossil fuels asap

At least lithium and the other metals used in the production of EV batteries can be recycled. As @CRXAndy points out crude oil based fuels, once burnt in a ICE are gone; absolutely unsustainable. Never mind the pollution released into already polluted urban environments.

EVs will not be the only solution, but at the moment, they are one available means of reducing urban pollution. However encouraging and supporting cycling infrastructure and culture are things we can all do.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

At least lithium and the other metals used in the production of EV batteries can be recycled. As @CRXAndy points out crude oil based fuels, once burnt in a ICE are gone; absolutely unsustainable. Never mind the pollution released into already polluted urban environments.

EVs will not be the only solution, but at the moment, they are one available means of reducing urban pollution. However encouraging and supporting cycling infrastructure and culture are things we can all do.

They can be recylced in theory, but in practice that doesn't happen in anything like the quantities quoted in much of the literature, and it takes energy to do it.

They are not 'reducing' urban pollution, they are changing the pollutants of concern, as demonstrated during lock down, where ozone increased as a consequence of the reductions in oxy radicals and particualte matter didn't decrease relative to vehicle numbers due to primary and other reactions.

 

[FishFright]

They can be recylced in theory, but in practice that doesn't happen in anything like the quantities quoted in much of the literature, and it takes energy to do it.

They are not 'reducing' urban pollution, they are changing the pollutants of concern, as demonstrated during lock down, where ozone increased as a consequence of the reductions in oxy radicals and particualte matter didn't decrease relative to vehicle numbers due to primary and other reactions.

But the amount recycled is increasing very quickly as the market demands more of the elements used in EV's. In the US it's picking up really quickly as there is a lot of money to be made.

How's recycling burned the hydrocarbons doing in comparison ?

 

[ClichéGuevara]

But the amount recycled is increasing very quickly as the market demands more of the elements used in EV's. In the US it's picking up really quickly as there is a lot of money to be made.

How's recycling burned the hydrocarbons doing in comparison ?

As I said, it doesn't happen in quantities anything like claimed in much of the literature, and still doesn't make them 'green' even compared to ICE, and it's still the poor subsidising the wealthier.

 

[cougie uk]

I'm sure recycled EV batteries will be great for using as household batteries to charge from Solar Panels. They don't need to be as energy dense as they do in the car.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

I think the 'undoubtedly' aspect of your post is debatable, especially if ALL issues are taken in to account. “we will need to mine more mineral ores than humans have extracted over the last 70,000 years”.

I expect the same 70,000 years factoid could be applied to fossil fuel extraction *without* a renewables transition...

 

[ClichéGuevara]

I expect the same 70,000 years factoid could be applied to fossil fuel extraction *without* a renewables transition...

Possibly, but the fossil fuels would now be able to offer the multitude of benefits it brought, including most if not all of the products we use on a daily basis, improvements in health, and life expectancy, 90%+ decline in the impacts of natural disasters such as hurricanes etc, land reclaimed from the sea, creatures save from extinction etc etc etc. They'd need to be balanced against the lower living standards, less food availability and potential lack of growth from not having a compact, portable supply of energy.

I'm not pro ICE, or anti EV, I just think that there is a lot of one eyed logic being pushed to support a mad dash for EV's and against fossil fuels, that doesn't take full account of all of the issues. That is quite liable to lead to a poor solution, and ignores the financial reality of many people.