Are we being forced to go electric?

[Sallar55]

Still have diesel vans one is 17 years old and it is serviced, only time it smoked was starting up when it was - 18° off the A9 at Dalwhinnie. Remember when the UK was in Artic mode. That spell of weather had weeks of no wind or it was very light, not good news for turbine power. If Toyota produce a cheaper version of the Mira and the Hydrogen network is nation wide I would have one.

 

[cougie uk]

Still have diesel vans one is 17 years old and it is serviced, only time it smoked was starting up when it was - 18° off the A9 at Dalwhinnie. Remember when the UK was in Artic mode. That spell of weather had weeks of no wind or it was very light, not good news for turbine power. If Toyota produce a cheaper version of the Mira and the Hydrogen network is nation wide I would have one.

That's a huge if though.
And you use more electric to create the hydrogen than you'd use to charge a battery. So it's pricier than electric even before you pay for attendants and transporting the hydrogen around the country and building the garages etc etc.

 

[Sallar55]

So who is paying for all the electric chargers, same difference. How long will it take to provide charging points for people with no off road parking. Time is money, bet the commercial users would prefer the quick hydrogen refill.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

So who is paying for all the electric chargers, same difference. How long will it take to provide charging points for people with no off road parking. Time is money, bet the commercial users would prefer the quick hydrogen refill.

We all are, even if we're never liable to use one. It's interesting how the expectation is for many of them to be provided by the Government, yet petrol stations are somehow different. It's not as if you HAVE to charge up at your home, in the same way you don't fill up with petrol on your drive.

On site generation of hydrogen is being trialed, where it is a way of storing solar and wind energy when it's generated when it is surplus to demand, making it effectively free.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

So who is paying for all the electric chargers, same difference. How long will it take to provide charging points for people with no off road parking. Time is money, bet the commercial users would prefer the quick hydrogen refill.

Hydrogen isn't really possible for large scale use. All of the other issues aside, you need about 3x the electricity generation to make the hydrogen, simply due to the efficiency losses in (1) electrolysis (2) compression (3) transmission (4) fuel cell. Cycle efficiency in batteries is much higher.

 

[Alex321]

We all are, even if we're never liable to use one. It's interesting how the expectation is for many of them to be provided by the Government, yet petrol stations are somehow different. It's not as if you HAVE to charge up at your home, in the same way you don't fill up with petrol on your drive.

I haven't seen any sign of such an expectation. I don't know of anybody who expects the government to provide charging stations, nor have I seen it suggested anywhere other than that post by you.

And no, of course you don't have to charge up at home. But most people who will have an EV would prefer to do so if they can, since that can be done while they are not using the car for several hours.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

I haven't seen any sign of such an expectation. I don't know of anybody who expects the government to provide charging stations, nor have I seen it suggested anywhere other than that post by you.

And no, of course you don't have to charge up at home. But most people who will have an EV would prefer to do so if they can, since that can be done while they are not using the car for several hours.

You haven't looked very far then.

PS, in answer to the question you were thinking of typing, no, I'm not posting examples.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

Whilst not directly for those materials, ALL power generation requires these sorts of inputs.

I can't immediately find a comparison, but I would guess that the material inputs are roughly proportional to the capital costs, attached from Wiki

View attachment 658357
And of course, the extraction of fossil fuels also required huge material inputs; oil rigs, mining equipment, pipelines etc etc

So whilst the issues you quote are real, there's no reason to believe they're any worse than for other power generation options - and the high value items like copper are readily recyclable at end of life.

EVs are for sure not the answer, but they are also undoubtedly far more environmentally friendly than ICE cars.

Cycling is best of all, of course.

Sorry, but nothing in that post convinces me that the battery powered EV and renewables energy sources have less environmental impact overall.

I am wanting to be convinced, and am happy to be convinced, but it's looking to me like we are just shifting the problems of ICE elsewhere.

NB: walking is even better than cycling of course - far less use of the planets resources. 😁

 

[roubaixtuesday]

NB: walking is even better than cycling of course - far less use of the planets resources. 😁

Nah. Cycling is the most efficient mode of transport there is bar none

Compared with walking, a 64 kg (140 lb) cyclist riding at 16 km/h (10 mph) requires about half the food energy per unit distance:

 

[cougie uk]

We all are, even if we're never liable to use one. It's interesting how the expectation is for many of them to be provided by the Government, yet petrol stations are somehow different. It's not as if you HAVE to charge up at your home, in the same way you don't fill up with petrol on your drive.

Have you not seen all of the charging stations ? There's dozens of private companies operating them.

And why wouldn't you want to fill up at home ? Cheaper and takes zero time.

I use public charging maybe 4 times a year and my EV range isn't huge.

 

[Alex321]

You haven't looked very far then.

PS, in answer to the question you were thinking of typing, no, I'm not posting examples.

I wouldn't expect you to. Your speciality seems to be making sweeping statements that you are unwilling to (or can't) back up. That's why I didn't even bother asking for any cites.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

Have you not seen all of the charging stations ? There's dozens of private companies operating them.

And why wouldn't you want to fill up at home ? Cheaper and takes zero time.

I use public charging maybe 4 times a year and my EV range isn't huge.

I wouldn't expect you to. Your speciality seems to be making sweeping statements that you are unwilling to (or can't) back up. That's why I didn't even bother asking for any cites.

*sigh*

How many of the private ones are in conjunction with local authorities, or get a central government grant?

I don't tend to bother posting articles, as these things tend to be spread across several areas, as some posters will simply argue the minutia, but just to humour you, and give you something to claim it doesn't support what I said...

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news...ance-holding-back-local-authority-ev-rollouts

 

[Alex321]

*sigh*

How many of the private ones are in conjunction with local authorities, or get a central government grant?

I don't tend to bother posting articles, as these things tend to be spread across several areas, as some posters will simply argue the minutia, but just to humour you, and give you something to claim it doesn't support what I said...

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news...ance-holding-back-local-authority-ev-rollouts

Interesting. And I se no reason to nitpick. That is clearly an expectation that the government will be doing so.

I genuinely wasn't aware that local authorities (whether funded by them or centrally) were actually going to be responsible for the installation of charge points an infrastructure. I had thought it was all going to be private initiatives, similar to cable TV & internet services.

I'm not sure whether that is a good thing or not (which I know is completely irrelevant to your point).

 

[CXRAndy]

*sigh*

How many of the private ones are in conjunction with local authorities, or get a central government grant?

I don't tend to bother posting articles, as these things tend to be spread across several areas, as some posters will simply argue the minutia, but just to humour you, and give you something to claim it doesn't support what I said...

https://www.current-news.co.uk/news...ance-holding-back-local-authority-ev-rollouts

Usual, local government waiting for central government to fund it. councils know best their local areas, spend money on pointless fluffy projects. Best leave it private companies to drive the initiative. Of the 11 million households, how many are in cities and towns? They should be walking or cycling, their decision to live in cities.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

Usual, local government waiting for central government to fund it. councils know best their local areas, spend money on pointless fluffy projects. Best leave it private companies to drive the initiative. Of the 11 million households, how many are in cities and towns? They should be walking or cycling, their decision to live in cities.

Hmm, so in your scenario, the inner Cities, which tend to compromise most of the deprived areas, should use local taxes to fund roads for the benefit of the wealthier that live outside and don't pay taxes to the City, and to not use them themselves. Aye, that seems fair.