Are we being forced to go electric?

[CXRAndy]

Volvo, who make hoth electric and ICE cars and who have a track record of open and honest6 in everything from safety through to emissions, reckon it takes 70,000 miles of use before an electric car breaks even CO2 emissions-wise with a comparable ICE car.

Tesla, who have never made a single ICE car, reckon its 20,000 miles.

I know who I beleive.

It wasn't Tesla that came up with the figures. The original 70000KM was sourced back to Aston Martin's PR company, spouting mis information.
The consensus with most research is around 15-20k miles to negate C02 extra emissions. But calculations vary because of overplaying certain aspects. Estimates as high as 50k miles if you factor in the worst aspects, like only using fossil fuels to recharge and picking the most efficient mpg cars to compare against.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/dec/06/carbon-dioxide-released-during-production-electric/

'Even worse for Tesla the video I posted yesterday shows the design and assembly of their monocoque is unnecessary complicated in design and takes more effort, and therefore energy, to manufacturer. They are decades behind their rivals with their monocoque and the requieed production inefficiency it brings. This would put Teslas offering beyond someone like Volvo who are skilled and have 70 years experience in mass producing monocoque structures'

I must be mistaken , but I thought I read that many other car makers are adopting the Giga press for efficiency savings. so these are the companies now using or going to use the Giga Press Tesla bought in 2019 for their Model Y

Which companies use Giga Press?


In addition to Toyota, General Motors (GM. N), Hyundai Motor (005380. KS) and affiliates of China's Geely – Volvo Cars, Polestar and Zeekr - are using the technology or planning for

 

[CXRAndy]

This might not be so far fetched come 2030

 

[Drago]

It doesn't matter who came up with the break-even figures Tesla use - no one believes them.

 

[MrGrumpy]

It doesn't matter who came up with the break-even figures Tesla use - no one believes them.

Careful now , don’t go spreading misinformation

 

[Rocky]

I’ve got a VW ID3 with a 77kwhr battery which I’ve had since Nov 2021. Like most cars I’ve owned it has good and bad aspects. Indeed after 50 years of car driving, I’ve yet to come across the perfect car.

What I like: the max range is quoted as 307 miles - we’ve got 260 miles on one charge leaving about 15% at the end of the journey. This does involved driving at 60mph but as I’ve got older, the speed of a journey worries me less. I love being able to charge at home and don’t miss the frequent filling up at petrol stations (particularly queuing behind someone who wants 40 fags and an over-ready pizza for tonight’s supper). I also hated when there were petrol shortages at the filling stations and the rigmarole of driving round to make sure I had enough fuel for the next day’s work journey. Yes, we’ll get power cuts but I reckon that electricity supplies are probably more robust than petrol.

What I don’t like: the uncertainty of longer 300+ mile journeys - will I find a charger which is free and working? Having to pay VED and inflated motor insurance (just had a gob-smacking quote for renewal and it has gone up 50% - my BIL has seen a rise of 15% with the same company for an equivalent ICE vehicle)…….”it’s to do with the cost of replacement parts for EVs, sir” was the reply I got. I’ve also had some unpleasant experiences with the VW EV software (cutting out completely in the fast lane of the M25 during rush hour) - part of me yearns for the 1970s when I had a Beatle with 120,000 on the clock which rarely broke down and when it did, I could fix it myself.

I’m not particularly concerned about the ID3’s carbon footprint - yes, we need to do more for the environment but this was not a motivator for me personally. My view is that if we want to save the planet we should be driving less - that goes for EVs and ICEs both. Luckily I am able to use my elephant bike for most journeys around town.

Overall, I’m reasonably happy with my ID3 but I wish the charging infrastructure was cheaper, more reliable and there were more chargers available.

 

[cyberknight]

If they go tits up, you will be at the end of a very long list of creditors.

as a division the EU and uk factories are forecast to make a decent profit this year

 

[CXRAndy]

as a division the EU and uk factories are forecast to make a decent profit this year

They are still selling something like 9 million vehicles per year.

Yes profitability is there, but can they still service the debt mountain when their ICE is cut as BEV full adoption dates loom.

For the biggest car maker they are not making any headway into Chinese, European, North America markets with their EVs. They are increasingly falling behind Tesla and BYD.

All the big car makes said they would catch up and overtake Tesla by 2025.

There is no sign any of them getting anywhere near Tesla

 

[CXRAndy]

It doesn't matter who came up with the break-even figures Tesla use - no one believes them.

But the misinformation propaganda figure was believable

 

[Andy in Germany]

Volvo, who make hoth electric and ICE cars and who have a track record of open and honest6 in everything from safety through to emissions, reckon it takes 70,000 miles of use before an electric car breaks even CO2 emissions-wise with a comparable ICE car.

Tesla, who have never made a single ICE car, reckon its 20,000 miles.

I know who I beleive.

Aren't something like 25% of the lifetime emissions from a car produced during the manufacture anyway?

 

[Drago]

Certainly a very significant chunk of them.

And there are other problems being glossed over. The chemical pollution, the child and slave labour, the up to 100,000 litres of water required to manufacture a kilo of lithium leading to massive and irreversible groundwater depletion, and on and on.

We're on our 3rd electric car and I like them a lot, but I'm under no illusion that it solves much of anything,

 

[Alex321]

Market forces were different 40 years ago (was it really 40 years ago?!)

With oil so cheap, and 'encouragement' from big oil in the US at political, social and business levels to keep burning their product there was not the incentive there is now.

Aye, being generous if one must it's fair to say that GM acted rather bizarrely at best over their initial electric car market experiments.

But is Teslas track record good?

Volvo, who make hoth electric and ICE cars and who have a track record of open and honest6 in everything from safety through to emissions, reckon it takes 70,000 miles of use before an electric car breaks even CO2 emissions-wise with a comparable ICE car.

Tesla, who have never made a single ICE car, reckon its 20,000 miles.

I know who I beleive.

Even worse for Tesla the video I posted yesterday shows the design and assembly of their monocoque is unnecessary complicated in design and takes more effort, and therefore energy, to manufacturer. They are decades behind their rivals with their monocoque and the requieed production inefficiency it brings. This would put Teslas offering beyond someone like Volvo who are skilled and have 70 years experience in mass producing monocoque structures, making even a 70,000 miles break-even hopelessly optimistic for Tesla.

When someone can't even lie straight in bed their track record is anything but good.

I don't remotely believe 70K miles.

I'm slightly surprised even at 20K TBH, unless in both cases, they are calculating on the basis of all the charging electricity being produced by fossil fuels.

 

[Alex321]

It doesn't matter who came up with the break-even figures Tesla use - no one believes them.

Why do you think that?

They seem FAR more likely to me than the ludicrous 70K miles. Still maybe a little pessimistic, but much closer.

 

[CXRAndy]

Certainly a very significant chunk of them.

And there are other problems being glossed over. The chemical pollution, the child and slave labour, the up to 100,000 litres of water required to manufacture a kilo of lithium leading to massive and irreversible groundwater depletion, and on and on.

We're on our 3rd electric car and I like them a lot, but I'm under no illusion that it solves much of anything,

Before the popularity of EVs, Cobalt and other rare earth metals were being extracted by slave labour, for electronics industry- mobile and laptops. Cobalt has been used for reducing Sulphur in fuels for vehicles, which is also mined with children. I dont see anyone saying stop using your diesel car, in fact I read regularly owners are sticking with their polluting vehicle longer, due to believing the hype.

The water use, I think is a red herring also. When you search and compare you get answers like this

Take electric vehicle (EV) carmaker Tesla, which uses 3,100 litres of water to produce just one of its electric vehicles, or BMW and VW (both manufacturers of EV and fuel-powered internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles) with a water usage of 2,250 litres and 3,700 litres per vehicle respectively.28 Mar 2022

 

[cyberknight]

Its the C02 emissions just to produce each vehicle thats the staggering part , even though we have massive solar panel array they measured it in how many hot air balloons per car

 

[All uphill]

So maybe we can agree that cars are large machines that take a lot of energy to produce and power?

ICE vehicle use produces pollution where they are used and that has health implications for people in those areas.
EV vehicle use may produce pollution where their energy is generated.

If so can we also agree that fewer car journeys would be a good thing?