Commuting in the dark of night.

Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.

SkipdiverJohn

Deplorable Brexiteer
Location
London
Anyone who drives a car will understand how hard it is to see anything though a sheet of glass in the pitch black when it is being bombarded with rain and the inside is steaming up quicker than the demister setting on your fan can handle.

Exactly, and that's without considering that buildings, trees, and even parked vehicles can throw shadows across a road that can conceal unlit road users until the last second. Wet roads can be shiny with reflected light which further reduces visibility. Then you have to consider a driver may not be familiar with the area or the road layout. They might be looking for a specific house number on a street or scanning for a road they need to turn into, or might be looking at a road sign. No-one drives with their eyes on their direction of travel all the time, as you need to be looking around at other things too.
A girl I know jaywalked into a road between two parked high roof vans at night, whilst looking at her phone instead of where she was going. Next thing she's in hospital with a fractured skull and other injuries that looked like she'd done twelve rounds with Mike Tyson in the ring. Entirely her fault, and no action taken against the driver who hit her. She was totally invisible until the last second by which time it was too late. The vehicle that hit her weighed about 12 tons and she was extremely lucky she got thrown away from it rather than under it by the impact.
 

roley poley

Über Member
Location
leeds
Just phone-flash
View attachment 555738
once again I find myself admiring the cut of your cloth choosing myself to unzip the sweaty gilet section and wear the sleeves only..
 

HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
But the simple fact is that a minority of people do drive that way.

They set off late for work, start driving before the demister has kicked in, only scrape the ice off the square foot of windscreen right in front of their eyes. Maybe their alarm didn't go off and they have only been awake for five minutes.

It's no good your family proving that a driver killed you because he wasn't paying enough attention. It won't bring you back.

In real life, there are a minority who don't give a shoot about anything. There are people who drink drive, there are people who drug drive. There are people who have never driven before who steal cars and take them for joyrides.

Why do you have such a downer on responsible cyclists trying to mitigate risk?

It doesn't make any sense.
I never said anything about cyclists trying to mitigate risks. It is actually the motorists it appears to be mitigating responsibility here. This post further confirms this...
 
  • Like
Reactions: mjr

HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
Exactly, and that's without considering that buildings, trees, and even parked vehicles can throw shadows across a road that can conceal unlit road users until the last second. Wet roads can be shiny with reflected light which further reduces visibility. Then you have to consider a driver may not be familiar with the area or the road layout. They might be looking for a specific house number on a street or scanning for a road they need to turn into, or might be looking at a road sign. No-one drives with their eyes on their direction of travel all the time, as you need to be looking around at other things too.
A girl I know jaywalked into a road between two parked high roof vans at night, whilst looking at her phone instead of where she was going. Next thing she's in hospital with a fractured skull and other injuries that looked like she'd done twelve rounds with Mike Tyson in the ring. Entirely her fault, and no action taken against the driver who hit her. She was totally invisible until the last second by which time it was too late. The vehicle that hit her weighed about 12 tons and she was extremely lucky she got thrown away from it rather than under it by the impact.
This is NOTHING we didn't already know. We are not trying to rival the theory test here. But if you hit anybody at 10pm and then tell the police that "you were scanning house numbers" do you hand on heart think that will fly? You are if nothing else admitting you are driving without due care and attention... This is not about what people "normally" do or whatever because frankly, anybody who drives like this is lucky and those around them are lucky, until they day they are no longer... Im not suggesting and haven't suggested cyclists wear ninja outfits, cyclist should be as visible as possible and take action. But misty windscreens and looking for house numbers are frankly pathetic excuses for anything and i doubt if any other road user was dressed in nothing but light bulbs it would help them...
 
OP
OP
Lovacott

Lovacott

Über Member
I never said anything about cyclists trying to mitigate risks. It is actually the motorists it appears to be mitigating responsibility here. This post further confirms this...
You seem to be of the mindset that motorists and cyclists are different species at war with each other?

I consider myself to be neither (as will the majority of motorists and cyclists).

Everyone I know has a bike and a car. Some have bikes, cars and motorbikes.

One of the blokes I work with has a helicopter, surfboard, boat, two bikes, three cars and a vintage motorbike.

Every day, all of us are pedestrians.

Risk mitigation is about doing everything reasonably practical to avoid the worst case scenarios which will never go away (the drunk driver, the half asleep driver, the car thief, the fat slob who hates cyclists).

So when it comes to choosing a rain jacket, a yellow one with Hi Viz piping will mitigate risk whereas a black hoodie won't.

A bit of reflective tape on the crossbar will get you seen maybe a second earlier. A couple of extra lights here and there won't hurt either.

I rather not end up in the position of arguing over the technicalities of whose fault it was that I ended up in a wheelchair.
 

HMS_Dave

Grand Old Lady
Risk mitigation is about doing everything reasonably practical to avoid the worst case scenarios which will never go away (the drunk driver, the half asleep driver, the car thief, the fat slob who hates cyclists).

So when it comes to choosing a rain jacket, a yellow one with Hi Viz piping will mitigate risk whereas a black hoodie won't.


A bit of reflective tape on the crossbar will get you seen maybe a second earlier. A couple of extra lights here and there won't hurt either.

I rather not end up in the position of arguing over the technicalities of whose fault it was that I ended up in a wheelchair.

You pretend not to be biased, but then you seem to think its OK to drive with steamed up windows. This is why i said about motorist mitigating responsibility above. A cyclists must do EVERYTHING in their power to avoid serious injury and death, which you have a point of course, but then think its fine to drive with steamed up windows and it isn't. There are many examples but i will link you one here from a quick search https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/16205120.steamed-window-blamed-collision/ So why is it OK then that a motorist can shirk their road safety responsibilities also? Yes, i know a cyclist is the one that is going to end up maimed or killed, again this is not new, everyone knows this. But road safety is EVERYONES responsibility that is the point that i am trying to make. It's no use being dressed up as a big flashing christmas tree, if the donkey driver is driving steamed up, looking for his mistresses address...
 
  • Like
Reactions: mjr

classic33

Leg End Member
Anyone who drives a car will understand how hard it is to see anything though a sheet of glass in the pitch black when it is being bombarded with rain and the inside is steaming up quicker than the demister setting on your fan can handle.

If other cyclists want to prove a point by being minimalist in their visibility, they can exclude me from their campaign.

I'd rather look like a twat and get home alive than look dead cool.
I've commuted lit up like a Christmas tree, had a 500,000 candlepower front light(homemade), worn full Hi-Vis, and used a strobe light as you'd see on an alarm box.

None of them have guaranteed that I'd be seen, nor have I ever expected them to.

However, if a cyclist were to say that they couldn't see the road in front of them clearly, they'd be told to either stop or slow down. Why should the same response to a car driver be any different?
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
So when it comes to choosing a rain jacket, a yellow one with Hi Viz piping will mitigate risk whereas a black hoodie won't.
And as mentioned above, decent lights render the clothing irrelevant.

I rather not end up in the position of arguing over the technicalities of whose fault it was that I ended up in a wheelchair.
And I would also rather not be helping put other cyclists in that position by arguing that cyclists should take irrelevant measures to reduce the risk posed by drivers who frankly shouldn't be driving.

A key word in your post is "reasonable". It is not reasonable to expect all cyclists to only wear ugly clothes. Various governments in various countries have forced certain groups to wear certain clothes and it never ends well!
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Lovacott

Lovacott

Über Member
However, if a cyclist were to say that they couldn't see the road in front of them clearly, they'd be told to either stop or slow down. Why should the same response to a car driver be any different?
Exactly the same applies to car drivers. They should drive to the conditions and I've never said anything different. As I both cycle and drive, I am always on the lookout for cyclists and overtake them like I would overtake a car (by going to the other side of the road).

However, there will always be drivers who don't do that, so when I cycle, I do everything I can to mitigate risk.
 
OP
OP
Lovacott

Lovacott

Über Member
A key word in your post is "reasonable". It is not reasonable to expect all cyclists to only wear ugly clothes.
I wear a yellow rain jacket with hi viz piping out of choice. Nobody expects me to, it isn't a law.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
I wear a yellow rain jacket with hi viz piping out of choice. Nobody expects me to, it isn't a law.
but by doing so, you help to build an expectation that we will. It's already in the highway code based on almost no evidence and definitely no consensus. It is not a long path from that to compulsion. It amazes me that so many work to ensure the code doesn't compel use of cycleways but so few oppose the dodgy clothing shoot in it.
 
OP
OP
Lovacott

Lovacott

Über Member
but by doing so, you help to build an expectation that we will.
I've always worn light clothing on a bike because in my opinion, it's the safest thing to do.

I'm not about to start wearing dark clothing just to help someone else prove a point.

I'm not in a cycling versus driver war and I never will be because I both cycle and drive (as do the vast majority of cyclists).
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
I've always worn light clothing on a bike because in my opinion, it's the safest thing to do.
Is that opinion rational?

I'm not in a cycling versus driver war and I never will be because I both cycle and drive (as do the vast majority of cyclists).
As do I, so I'm not in a "cycling versus driving war" either. I'm not even in a war against selfish cyclists who attempt to distract drivers with their clothes. I just think they're a bad thing on many levels and should not be advocated.

Meanwhile, I feel drivers should take responsibility for driving to the conditions,unlike some on here who imply driving blind with misty windows should be expected.
 
Top Bottom