Coronavirus outbreak

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Mugshot

Cracking a solo.
Stay at home, Mugshot, and maybe one of us will.
Can't, I'm a key worker :okay:
 

MarkF

Guru
Location
Yorkshire
I think you are confusing experts with people who think that " some people will die - so be it."

For me the less people that die the better.

Surely that depends on a lot of variables? We don't yet know the deaths, past & future, that could be attributed to the lockdown, we don't even know how long the lockdown will last, or what we are going to do after it.
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
Surely that depends on a lot of variables? We don't yet know the deaths, past & future, that could be attributed to the lockdown, we don't even know how long the lockdown will last, or what we are going to do after it.
Unfortunately lockdowns can only be managed by looking forwards and their efficacy can only be determined by looking backwards.

Really we can criticise the government as much as we like but it makes no difference. We are all in the same boat and it's incumbent on all to make the best of what we have. Only after the pandemic has subsided can the assessment start. Until then there is too much still to play for

Hence my focus not on political point scoring in this thread but on trying to achieve the best possible result in the real world. Be that bollocking cyclists for riding in groups, creating threads in Cafe to remind folk about social distancing or whatever
 

IaninSheffield

Veteran
Location
Sheffield, UK
Not sure whether levity is appropriate in this thread, but perhaps this might be slid in under the banner of 'satire'?
Or asking us to take a step back when interpreting visual representations of data?

scenario_4.png
 

Wobblers

Euthermic
Location
Minkowski Space
The response looks well organised to me.

In such a complicated task, keeping cock ups to a minimum is the best you can hope for.

Did whatever happened with that email knock us back to any great degree?

As Gove said in one of the briefings, we've been buying ventilators all over the place, including from the EU.

There's been some problems with protective clothing, but if the demand for anything spikes significantly there will be shortages.

Our manufacturing companies have proved themselves adept at turning their hand to making stuff they don't usually make.

Examining the alternatives is not whataboutery, it's a valid part of assessing performance and what could be expected.

Chuck Johnson and Hancock in the Thames if you like, but there's no point in doing that unless there is or was something better to put in their place.

The chancellor should also get an honourable mention.

Brilliant job by him and his staff to come up with two huge rescue plans in such short order.

Government policy has been contrary to the opinion of epidemiologists from the off. That is not "cock-up", that is systematic incompetence. These "problems" in PPE, as you put it, were predicted before the event. It was clear from the experience of Wuhan that PPE shortages would be a major issue. Two months ago! That's two months squandered, when we could - should - have been making preparations. Then Italy - it was quite obvious that our close contact with continental Europe meant that a major outbreak in the UK was only a matter of time, still nothing was done to procure extra stocks of PPE, or respirators, or ramp up the availability of testing kits or the reagents and other components needed for the required level of testing within the population. We still have shortages of all these - and there seems to be little prospect of any improvement for weeks (hopefully) if not months (more likely). This is not an "organised response".

You , in saying that others would do worse than Johnson & co, are trying to deflect from the fact that the government's performance has been lacking. That is the very definition of whataboutery. I want them to do better. We need them to do better. This is not a political issue. But trying to shut down debate on how we can do better very much is
 

Wobblers

Euthermic
Location
Minkowski Space
What part of 'right time and place' do you not understand?

The time and place to prevent a government (of any political make up) going down a potentially extremely destructive path is now. It is also an essential part of any democracy.
 
Surely that depends on a lot of variables? We don't yet know the deaths, past & future, that could be attributed to the lockdown, we don't even know how long the lockdown will last, or what we are going to do after it.
Thought that was more or less what I said.
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
The time and place to prevent a government (of any political make up) going down a potentially extremely destructive path is now. It is also an essential part of any democracy.
I agree that it's part of any democracy to hold its government to account
I disagree that now is the right time in that I cannot envisage a mechanism to effect change in policy. I'm at a point where it feels like we are all in the same boat whether we like it or not and it's incumbent on us all to effect the best result

Of course when the dust settles this situation completely changes
 

Inertia

I feel like I could... TAKE ON THE WORLD!!
I'd have a quick word with the photo editor and ask him why the plane has a Swiss flag emblazoned on its tail - that exterior photo of the plane is of a Swiss Rega one, which serves Switzerland and Liechtenstein. That's a different European cooperation.
Yeah, I did think notice that but I was more impressed by the interior shots which I was sure were accurate. Otherwise, it did look a bit tardis-like. They are both impressive pieces of kit regardless.
 

Wobblers

Euthermic
Location
Minkowski Space
You ought to ask that of our doctors and scientists who devised our strategy.

Yes, I think it is time that this aspect of our strategy was examined.

It has been very clear, from the experience in Wuhan that a swift lockdown acts to rapidly reduce transmission rate and therefore casualties in any CV-19 outbreak. Only a fool would deny that - and Whitty and Vallance aren't fools. I have little doubt that they presented that evidence to the government. But the fact is that this is not a scientific decision, but a political decision. It has to be. I suspect that the government took the opinion that the economic consequences of such a course would be undesirable (to say the least) and decided that this was an unwise course. This is not something I condemn them for - given the damage now being wrought to many peoples' livelihoods it is perfectly sensible - if you have a reasonable alternative strategy.

So the question becomes "What is a reasonable alternative - and did the UK follow it?" The experience of China, HK, Taiwan and South Korea have shown that with mass testing and contact tracing, coronavirus transmission can be very effectively curtailed. We didn't follow that strategy either. Why I'm not sure - perhaps we'll never know. Perhaps the people advising the government understood that we couldn't ramp up testing to the degree required.

Instead, we chose what was in all but name a gamble: that we could shield those who are most vulnerable and let the epidemic burn through the UK to attain herd immunity, hoping its progress would be sufficiently slow that the resources of the NHS wouldn't be overwhelmed. This strategy ignored the data showing the CV-19 was a highly contagious disease capable of spreading very rapidly through a vulnerable population. An overwhelmed NHS and mass deaths were all but inevitable.

Johnson, to his credit, changed course once credible modelling data was produced showing his course would mean hundreds of thousands of deaths (though it still took a full week after Ferguson's study was published for a full lockdown to be implemented). What I do most definitely criticise Johnson for is the lack of any exit strategy. There are no plans over what to do after lockdown. We can't go with this lockdown for long. At the moment, we have no strategy to prevent a second peak once restrictions are relaxed - and there will be one. The one strategy we know works is the mass testing, quarantine and contact testing done by China, S. Korea and Taiwan. We have only a few weeks to implement this, time is desperately short, but we're seeing nothing of substance emerging from government. As things stand, I fear that the most likely outcome is that we'll experience both the economic damage of the lockdown, coupled with the mass deaths of a resurgent epidemic thereafter.

This is not politics. This is beyond politics. I want Johnson to get a grip and a strategy, and stop this directionless thrashing around. There is far too much at stake to descend into party politics. We need action from the Johnson government. Not promises that can't be met. Do you not understand that?
 

marinyork

Resting in suspended Animation
Location
Logopolis
And true mass testing is only possible with antibody kits, which most people on this thread and our government are phobic towards.

So there are no solutions, effectively, open to the UK government, aside from a tiny number of PCR tests and contact tracing to stop moderate putbreaks in local areas where hundreds die.
 
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