Drawing the Cycle Design Vehicle

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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Downloaded the plans from the council's planning applications pages, opened them in Inkscape, used the scale on the page to draw a rectangle 2.8m long by 1.2m wide to represent the Cycle Design Vehicle (from the current Cycle Infra Design book LTN 1/20) and an inner turning circle of 2.5m radius, then used the copy/paste, move and rotate tools to show just how good the proposed bridge ramp isn't.

Let's just say this: if they build it like that, cargo trikes, trailer bikes, tandems and probably some others will be crashing into the walls on the way up. And that's before we even check whether two-way cycle traffic can pass safely.

I emailed this to the planning officers and the developers. Let's see if it sinks in now that you should not put a zero-radius hairpin on a 3m ramp!

hairpin-cdv-track.png


(Edited to correct width of CDV: it is 1.2m not 1.8m)
 
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sheddy

Legendary Member
Location
Suffolk
Well done. Can you link to the planning application so that other locals can submit comments ?
 
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I like Skol

A Minging Manc...
I'm not sure I get what your objection is? I'm sat here in my 4m x 4m living room thinking that a 6m wide space is practically a motorway in bicycle terms. Are there any projected usage figures because unless this is going to be very heavily used I don't think your point about passing other users on the corner is valid. It isn't a racetrack and heaven forbid that users may have to demonstrate some cooperation and give way to each other on a bend on an access ramp to a bridge.

EDIT: I admit I may be missing the point entirely and wait to be educated.
 
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mjr

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
The consultation deadline will be extended because amended designs and updated reports are still being filed, as of last week. @sheddy - it looks to me like the comments form is still open.

I'm not sure I get what your objection is? I'm sat here in my 4m x 4m living room thinking that a 6m wide space is practically a motorway in bicycle terms. Are there any projected usage figures because unless this is going to be very heavily used I don't think your point about passing other users on the corner is valid. It isn't a racetrack and heaven forbid that users may have to demonstrate some cooperation and give way to each other on a bend on an access ramp to a bridge.

EDIT: I admit I may be missing the point entirely and wait to be educated.
The basic objection is that it is too narrow with too sharp corners for some government-blessed cycles to make the bend — not even "give way to each other" but at all. The current ramp is straight and slightly steeper and narrower than allowed these days, but it's not awful because no-one has to make a U-turn and two Ls during the climb. Now the borough council wants to bulldoze a road through the bridge legs, so have proposed this little detour of a replacement ramp.

Maybe "a 6m wide space is practically a motorway in bicycle terms" to you, but this is 3m wide with a hairpin. The 6.15m shown is the outer size of the hairpin: two ramps and the fence between them. The recommendation in LTN 1/20 (chapter 10 IIRC) for this situation is 5.5m ramp width. Other parts of the nearby cycle route network are up to 9m wide. A 3m hairpin will be a choke point.

"Very heavily used"? Yes, it's on the Primary Cycle Route Network in the Local Cycling and Walking Implementation Plan (LCWIP) and it's a bridge that connects the four large residential areas to the north to three industrial estates and four retail parks to the south, although there is a two-street gap in the infrastructure where riders have to mix with HGVs and 30mph(yeah, right!) commuters, thanks to idiot safety auditors, which limits usage. Automatic counters were stopped in year ending 2016, before one of the retail parks and one of the industrial estates opened, but rush hour back then saw 300-400 riders detected in each direction. If government is serious about keeping the borough moving, then this is already a key route and it will only become more so, with a new 4000-ish-house residential area planned to the south who probably will be expected to use the hospital and three secondary schools in the residential areas to the north.

No, it's not a racetrack but people do want to get to and from work without enduring an obstacle course. Surely we shouldn't be putting literal obstacles in the way of people cycling like we'd like them to?

And another part of the plan is a mahoosive long arch bridge for cars — which maybe we can agree should not be built, as it is very contrary to several planning policies, but if it is built and they also make the cycleway bridge too difficult to use, it seems pretty likely lots of people will probably switch to motoring.
 
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sheddy

Legendary Member
Location
Suffolk
Am I correct in thinking that the rail line has negligible traffic ?
If so, would a simple foot crossing suffice ?
 
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mjr

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Am I correct in thinking that the rail line has negligible traffic ?
If so, would a simple foot crossing suffice ?
Yes, it's in the region of 4 to 6 freight trains a day on a busy day. Other days nothing. It's known as the Sand Line because it now serves only a quarry. It used to continue to Swaffham and Dereham and connect there on to the Mid Norfolk for access to Wymondham and Norwich. Occasionally, park and rail is suggested, but one on the London line is more likely.

But I believe there is almost exactly no chance of Network Rail agreeing to new level crossings, even for foot+cycle, and they would very much like to close the remaining three in the town: Tennyson, Extons and Nowhere. I suspect they would be happy to close even the three on this disused docks branch.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
When did you last see a cargo tricycle, and how wide was it. How often do you actually see one.
 

annedonnelly

Girl from the North Country
Yes, it's in the region of 4 to 6 freight trains a day on a busy day. Other days nothing. It's known as the Sand Line because it now serves only a quarry. It used to continue to Swaffham and Dereham and connect there on to the Mid Norfolk for access to Wymondham and Norwich. Occasionally, park and rail is suggested, but one on the London line is more likely.

But I believe there is almost exactly no chance of Network Rail agreeing to new level crossings, even for foot+cycle, and they would very much like to close the remaining three in the town: Tennyson, Extons and Nowhere. I suspect they would be happy to close even the three on this disused docks branch.
I understand that there is a desire to remove level crossings from everywhere on the network. Presumably because of the occasional idiot driver who doesn't notice barriers, flashing lights & oncoming trains.
 
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mjr

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
When did you last see a cargo tricycle, and how wide was it. How often do you actually see one.
I don't know when I last saw one and I've not taken a tape measure to any of them. I see them relatively often, outside of lockdown. They're not rare. Here's a 2015 pic of one local bakfiets but there are other types in use here too. Maybe one day we will see the larger ones in @sheddy's video, but that will be less likely if they can't fit across bridges.
bakfiets.jpg
 
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mjr

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
That's the destination of my next tour sorted.
I think I remember being told that there are three places called Nowhere just in Norfolk. The Lynn one is definitely underwhelming, with 1930s housing and allotments up to it on one side and a factory fence the other, with the only remnant now being the level crossing name plate.
 
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