E-MTB - Errosion damage ?

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I met an e-MTB guy yesterday, pushing his stead up a hill, so was i but mine was a tad lighter... it was 25% and super slippy so no amount of leccy was going to help anyone.

To be fair the ground is currently so soft anything is churning it up here after a lot of snow melt and now rain, but i agree with the original comment about e-MTB's literally ripping it up trails at full tilt with wheels spinning etc, i'm probably just envious:laugh:

I'll have to dig out the old Minions:okay:
 

richtea

Senior Member
Many won't like this, but from a ride I did today with 4 other 'poor fekkers' on analogue MTB's, was that trail centres are getting over run by electric two wheel go carts !
...:laugh:

PS this isn't an anti-ebike rant, but from today, we saw more of them than normal bikes, and their riding was much less enviromentally acceptable.

Views ?
From an enjoyment point of view, it's a common problem - a facility becomes popular and gets spoilt by over-use. It will settle into a balanced halfway house, i.e. some people don't like it any more and don't return = less damage for others. This applies regardless of eMTBs.

From an envronmental point of view, driving 50 miles to the MTB centre probably does more environmental damage than riding around it.
(Not picking on you, by the way - I also stick my bike in the car occasionally.)
 
Used to see a lot of damage from bikes in the lakes. Was years before eMTBs though. Does this just mean the issue is irresponsible riders doing stuff beyond their abilities and the bikes used is a bit of a side issue. Especially since I still see non electric MTBs being ridden irresponsibly causing erosion these days. How would you propose solving irresponsible riders causing damage? All bikes cause damage that's often greater than the humble boot print. Even walking causes damage however that's more to do with the greater numbers doing it than individuals doing the damage.

If there's money trails can be made better such that it's harder or less favourable to ride off trail. Perhaps better engineered trails?

What's your ideas? Just ban the electric bikes? In that case there's places you'd need to apply that to all mountain bike use. The only option is to manage it I reckon. That's money that's needed for that I fear isn't available.
 
We came over a climb over some rocks today, and it was like WTF..... I had no idea where to go as it was a mess - that doesn't happen with pedal powered stuff. Stick to the trail, or walk it (on the trail).
Unfortunately these guys don't get it. This why an oddball and overzealous environmentalist starts stringing wires across trails.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
Used to see a lot of damage from bikes in the lakes. Was years before eMTBs though. Does this just mean the issue is irresponsible riders doing stuff beyond their abilities and the bikes used is a bit of a side issue. Especially since I still see non electric MTBs being ridden irresponsibly causing erosion these days. How would you propose solving irresponsible riders causing damage? All bikes cause damage that's often greater than the humble boot print. Even walking causes damage however that's more to do with the greater numbers doing it than individuals doing the damage.

If there's money trails can be made better such that it's harder or less favourable to ride off trail. Perhaps better engineered trails?

What's your ideas? Just ban the electric bikes? In that case there's places you'd need to apply that to all mountain bike use. The only option is to manage it I reckon. That's money that's needed for that I fear isn't available.
If the site is charging for usage, then there should be money and the option to vary the trails, allowing work on the damaged sections to be done.

I likened it earlier to people walking of the track leading to "sterile" paths. Paths which are nothing more than large stone slab's. Five miles of slabs cutting across the countryside does stand out.

Maybe something like this, along the lines of the Country Code, needs considering.
http://www.mountainbikeni.com/useful-info/mtb-code-of-conduct/
 

jowwy

Can't spell, Can't Punctuate....Sue Me
are these custom trails built for cycling?? or are they trails that have been cut by cyclists, because they have been ridden on for years and years.

I'm guessing they weren't there in the past, so cycling as whole as ruined/erroded the landscape not just E Bikes
 
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fossyant

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
are these custom trails built for cycling?? or are they trails that have been cut by cyclists, because they have been ridden on for years and years.

I'm guessing they weren't there in the past, so cycling as whole as ruined/erroded the landscape not just E Bikes

Proper cycle trails, but they are 'old ones' and maintained by volunteers, but due to what e-MTB's can do, their tracks were cutting up land beside the trails - I saw if first hand where the riders were going. We were actually out-numbered by the electric lot. How the hell you can ride round a forest in 13c temperatures in full waterproofs - we were down to t-shirsts or jackets unzipped.

As has been said - there seems to be a breed of idiots on e-MTB's that will go where they like, because they can. Some bits of the trail would still have been ride-able if this lot stuck to it.

Llandelgla holds up well as it's essentially private, and funded by parking fees and well maintained. Gisburn is Forestry Commission and isn't maintained that well, and is popular due to location. It needs more maintenance as it's now an e-bike playground.
 

jowwy

Can't spell, Can't Punctuate....Sue Me
Proper cycle trails, but they are 'old ones' and maintained by volunteers, but due to what e-MTB's can do, their tracks were cutting up land beside the trails - I saw if first hand where the riders were going. We were actually out-numbered by the electric lot. How the hell you can ride round a forest in 13c temperatures in full waterproofs - we were down to t-shirsts or jackets unzipped.

As has been said - there seems to be a breed of idiots on e-MTB's that will go where they like, because they can. Some bits of the trail would still have been ride-able if this lot stuck to it.

Llandelgla holds up well as it's essentially private, and funded by parking fees and well maintained. Gisburn is Forestry Commission and isn't maintained that well, and is popular due to location. It needs more maintenance as it's now an e-bike playground.
so the Erosion you speak of, was originally done due to "Normal" bikes....but has now been exasperated by "E - Bikes".........but is still erosion non the less
 
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fossyant

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
so the Erosion you speak of, was originally done due to "Normal" bikes....but has now been exasperated by "E - Bikes".........but is still erosion non the less

Made significantly worse be e-bikers not sticking to the trail.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
so the Erosion you speak of, was originally done due to "Normal" bikes....but has now been exasperated by "E - Bikes".........but is still erosion non the less
Think of it as overuse of a footpath, by walkers, making parts less pleasant to use so people go wide of the actual footpath.
You have a group of 50 walking it as opposed to a group of five.
 

I like Skol

A Minging Manc...
These trails were never designed or intended for motorbike use, but that is essentially what is now happening.

A similar thing happened with off-road 4x4s. During the 50-80s off roading was a niche enthusiasts pastime that took place on legal, often ancient unsurfaced highways or at infrequent events on private land hosted by interested landowners and organised by specialised clubs. The activity was done mostly by people who worked in the countryside or who had connections to the land (hence access to 4x4 vehicles) and because of this connection they understood the responsibilities and behaved sensibly. 4x4 use went largely unnoticed and everyone was happy.

Then at the end of the 80s something profound happened. Car manufacturers started making and selling 4x4s as lifestyle commodities rather than the working utility vehicles they had been up to this point. They sold like hot cakes!
Initially nothing changed, because nobody wanted to trash their expensive car and ruin the financial residuals by battering the cars over rough, rocky ground or squeezing down scratchy, overgrown old roads. A decade later a glut of older 4x4s hit the market and after suffering painful depreciation due to the sheer numbers now for sale, cost of maintenance and obsolescence due to newer models these were now affordable as toys for the ordinary man in the street.

This is where it all started to go wrong. Suddenly hoards of 4x4s were heading into the countryside and convoys of vehicles were chewing up the fragile lanes due to unprecedented volumes of traffic on roads that were only ever expected to carry a handful of ancient 'vehicles' a day. People had their 'rights' though and they used the lanes regardless of the weather or road conditions, and to make matters worse they often deviated from the track to 'play' on interesting features on surrounding private land. In conjunction with this and maybe more closely related to the MTB trail centre situation, was the explosion in the 'pay & play' 4x4 events. Unlike early club events where an enthusiast club might hire a bit of interesting land from a private land owner once or twice a year to host a competition, enterprising individuals began running off-road events for profit and would hire sites almost monthly or even more frequently in some cases, and squeeze hundreds of 4x4s onto the site to do as they pleased. This obviously wrecked the land, in a way that will take decades to recover in some cases, but also drew anger from locals due to speeding 4x4s tearing through the surrounding villages dropping mud everywhere. So now we have mass inappropriate use of countryside rights-of-way with illegal use of surrounding land. We also have private sites that have closed down both due to the permanent land damage and also due to the problems they caused in the surrounding community. It's no surprise that the rise of the anti-4x4 movements have been so successful, leading to closure of R-o-Ws and private sites.

Does any of the above sound remotely familiar? Irresponsible use of readily available machinery in the countryside.......

'Pay & Play' events are now much less common because the sites have been shut down by the councils or the land owners realised that the use was too extreme, unsustainable and damaging. Lets just hope the same doesn't happen to mtb trail centres (or maybe it should?)
 

classic33

Leg End Member
These trails were never designed or intended for motorbike use, but that is essentially what is now happening.

A similar thing happened with off-road 4x4s. During the 50-80s off roading was a niche enthusiasts pastime that took place on legal, often ancient unsurfaced highways or at infrequent events on private land hosted by interested landowners and organised by specialised clubs. The activity was done mostly by people who worked in the countryside or who had connections to the land (hence access to 4x4 vehicles) and because of this connection they understood the responsibilities and behaved sensibly. 4x4 use went largely unnoticed and everyone was happy.

Then at the end of the 80s something profound happened. Car manufacturers started making and selling 4x4s as lifestyle commodities rather than the working utility vehicles they had been up to this point. They sold like hot cakes!
Initially nothing changed, because nobody wanted to trash their expensive car and ruin the financial residuals by battering the cars over rough, rocky ground or squeezing down scratchy, overgrown old roads. A decade later a glut of older 4x4s hit the market and after suffering painful depreciation due to the sheer numbers now for sale, cost of maintenance and obsolescence due to newer models these were now affordable as toys for the ordinary man in the street.

This is where it all started to go wrong. Suddenly hoards of 4x4s were heading into the countryside and convoys of vehicles were chewing up the fragile lanes due to unprecedented volumes of traffic on roads that were only ever expected to carry a handful of ancient 'vehicles' a day. People had their 'rights' though and they used the lanes regardless of the weather or road conditions, and to make matters worse they often deviated from the track to 'play' on interesting features on surrounding private land. In conjunction with this and maybe more closely related to the MTB trail centre situation, was the explosion in the 'pay & play' 4x4 events. Unlike early club events where an enthusiast club might hire a bit of interesting land from a private land owner once or twice a year to host a competition, enterprising individuals began running off-road events for profit and would hire sites almost monthly or even more frequently in some cases, and squeeze hundreds of 4x4s onto the site to do as they pleased. This obviously wrecked the land, in a way that will take decades to recover in some cases, but also drew anger from locals due to speeding 4x4s tearing through the surrounding villages dropping mud everywhere. So now we have mass inappropriate use of countryside rights-of-way with illegal use of surrounding land. We also have private sites that have closed down both due to the permanent land damage and also due to the problems they caused in the surrounding community. It's no surprise that the rise of the anti-4x4 movements have been so successful, leading to closure of R-o-Ws and private sites.

Does any of the above sound remotely familiar? Irresponsible use of readily available machinery in the countryside.......

'Pay & Play' events are now much less common because the sites have been shut down by the councils or the land owners realised that the use was too extreme, unsustainable and damaging. Lets just hope the same doesn't happen to mtb trail centres (or maybe it should?)
On that last part, a site, pay to enter and maintained, near me closed due to the damage caused. They couldn't repair the damage done, and landowners who let them onto their land were left with similar damage. Once water hits, it'll take the easiest way downhill, and soon eats into the ground.
 
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fossyant

fossyant

Ride It Like You Stole It!
Location
South Manchester
But is it only E bikers???…….could it not be normal bikes too???

Most of the damage is coming from e-bikes - we saw them doing it. They were the ones taking off into 'off piste' stuff - not possible for a mere leg powered MTB to get up some of the stuff.
 

Milkfloat

An Peanut
Location
Midlands
I am sure that in the late 80s if a forum for walkers existed they would be moaning about these new fangled MTBs churning up the paths. Whilst I am sure e-MTBs are causing more damage per bike than an MTB it is a bit rich of MTB riders to be so vocal about the new tribe in a such derogative manner. I don't have the answer to how to solve erosion on un/low maintained trails except banning all types of user or creating even more trails to lighten the load on individual trails, but if something can be done it will need the cooperation of all trail users.
 
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