Froome and Wiggins TUEs

Discussion in 'Pro Cycling (Road and Track Racing)' started by Joffey, 15 Sep 2016.

  1. Foghat

    Foghat Veteran

    Good. Hopefully there'll be additional punishment for Sky for blemishing the image, reputation and interests of cycling and UCI through wilful delaying and obfuscation tactics, on top of the sanction for recklessly administering extra Salbutamol for the purpose of preserving a race lead.
     
  2. mjr

    mjr Wanting to Keep My EU Citizenship

    Maybe I'm being dense, but I see reference to a 2016 study when I think the limit was set before that - and the study managed to produce cases that exceeded the limit slightly. How does it show the limit was based on "rigorous lab testing"?

    One problem if they did set limits from lab testing, even with an allowance, is it's quite likely that the lab results will be on some sort of distribution curve between zero as the lower bound and some physiological limit at the upper which may not be found among the lab test sample... and this occasion might be an outlier. I think it's improbable and attempting this defence would be high risk, but it's possible and I wouldn't rule it out. That's part of why the current salbutamol test sucks almost as much as the old hematocrit one - is the rule for athletes to limit their salbutamol intake methods and amount, or is the rule really not to pee too much of it? And if it's intake, why aren't they also using inhalers that record dispensing? But then they could be using non-recording inhalers to take extra... what a mess!
     
  3. Bollo

    Bollo Failed Tech Bro

    Location:
    Winch
    And that’s what I just don’t get. It’s almost becoming an act of self harm in order to protect reputations that have long since disappeared down the shitter. I wonder if any of the people involved will ever come out and say “yeah, we should have just sucked up a 9 month ban, given the Vuelta back and returned without all the cleaner-than-thou PR bollocks”.
     
    smutchin likes this.
  4. Bollo

    Bollo Failed Tech Bro

    Location:
    Winch
    Pity Like.
     
    Crackle likes this.
  5. smutchin

    smutchin Cat 6 Racer

    Location:
    The Red Enclave
    OK, if the limit predates the test, maybe I've got that the wrong way round. But if what Dr Bill says is correct, the tests do seem to support the 1,000mg limit, and demonstrate that it can only be exceeded in extreme circumstances, and even then not by a huge amount (certainly not double) - and he suggests that it's extremely unlikely that anyone could exceed the limit by using an inhaler alone, you'd have to take a single massive dose, probably in pill form.

    If that's Sky's defence, the onus should be on them to prove it.
     
    roadrash likes this.
  6. Foghat

    Foghat Veteran

    Sky is likely not much longer for the world of procycling. They've proven to be far more concerned with exposure than reputation, in line with the unprincipled Murdoch ethos, which people should be in no doubt is providing top-down direction to Team Sky. Unfortunately this means Sky/Murdoch will continue to ream what it can out of the sport, regardless of the consequences for cycling, while it still can and until Disney pulls the plug.
     
    Last edited: 22 Mar 2018
  7. mjr

    mjr Wanting to Keep My EU Citizenship

    The study abstract says they tested thirteen healthy males inhaling... males is OK in this case, but both thirteen and healthy raise doubts for me about whether Froome might actually exceed the limit. Healthy test subjects would have had no asthma, presumably no history of bilharzia and they still managed to manufacture a couple of AAFs in such a small sample. It would also be interesting to know if these were endurance athletes and if they'd been exercising regularly in the weeks before the test.

    Oh, I agree. I just won't be as surprised as some of you if they do, at least on a balance of probabilities.
     
    roadrash likes this.
  8. Bollo

    Bollo Failed Tech Bro

    Location:
    Winch
    I’ve wondered that about the limits as well. Unless I’m not understanding, the dose limit is defined in terms of a physiological measurement that’s extrapolated to a dose. Why not just cut out at least some of the uncertainty and define the pass/fail limit in terms of that measurement directly? It’s then the teams’ responsibility to ensure that the physiological measurement stays below the limit using whatever doses work for each rider.
     
  9. Foghat

    Foghat Veteran

    No, but whose claim to want a quick resolution is more believable? Punish for wilful obfuscation then, if UCI has unreasonably contributed to any delay.

    Because Sky knows its only hope is a long, complex drawn-out process that UCI cannot afford and runs out of money to prosecute (legal support/representation being extremely costly) or throws up a technicality Sky hasn't found yet that it hopes will get the case dismissed, as you've alluded to.

     
    Last edited: 22 Mar 2018
  10. Foghat

    Foghat Veteran

    Indeed - the dosing guidelines are merely general guidelines, not instructions, whereas the test limit is an absolute that Dr Apollo 11 has shown to be a reasonable one and which professional athletes/teams should be duty-bound to ensure they keep the right side of.....and if that means not dicking around with extra Salbutamol to preserve race leads, so be it.
     
    Last edited: 22 Mar 2018
  11. smutchin

    smutchin Cat 6 Racer

    Location:
    The Red Enclave
    ...by administering a huge single dose.

    OK, I take your point about the possibility of outliers, but I remain skeptical that this is the explanation in this case. And like @Dogtrousers I'm getting impatient - although I'm mindful of the fact that Ulissi's case took nine months to resolve.
     
    Dogtrousers likes this.
  12. mjr

    mjr Wanting to Keep My EU Citizenship

    I suspect it's Sky. I suspect they tried to replicate conditions and reproduce the results during training and failed, so will now try to use the Giro to do it. If he's not anywhere near leading, expect Froome to go missing on the second rest day while he goes to a lab somewhere.

    If UCI is delaying it, then some of Lapdog's statements are pretty devious.
     
  13. Foghat

    Foghat Veteran

    I doubt very much UCI/LADS are delaying the process - it's in their interests for a quick resolution, and they must have good groundwork from earlier cases to use. Given Sky's decision not to take advantage of the off-season as part of a quick ban, the tactic that gives Sky the most exposure and only chance of success is one that prevaricates and delays such that participation at the Giro and Tour are still feasible.

    Following due process with limited resources doesn't count as delaying. Taking forever to submit a case does. Do we know if Sky has actually submitted a case yet?
     
    Last edited: 22 Mar 2018
  14. smutchin

    smutchin Cat 6 Racer

    Location:
    The Red Enclave
    #classicbantz
     
  15. Foghat

    Foghat Veteran

    Sure - they could be painting cows' tits red too, but why.....?

    Just follow the money.
     
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