German wings 4U 9525

[Mad Doug Biker]

I was talking about the Air France crash and then the current one at the end regarding th ATC bit. A bit of a cross post there!!

Well, sort of @Fab Foodie, I was also talking about yesterdays accident and crashes generally too, but the ATC bit was an explicit reference!

Or something.


Oh well, lets see what they come up with this time.

 

[mybike]

This is worrying: http://www.avherald.com/h?article=47d74074/0000&opt=0

I don't know much about the technical side of flying but I do remember a pilot telling me he preferred flying Boeings to Airbuses because the Boeings still allowed the pilot to control the aircraft manually. If the article I've linked turns out also to relate to this latest incident, my concern about relinquishing much of the flying to a computer will just increase. AF447 from Rio to Paris crashed because the humans couldn't understand what the computer was trying to do and by the time they did understand, it was too late.

I think the problem is that pilots have natural preferences for what they know. Where there is a problem is in the lack of experience actually flying, rather than relying on the systems. As in AF447 the instruments were believed rather what was the reason behind what they were showing.

 

[marknotgeorge]

If you have ever watched any number of 'Air Crash Investigation', you'll realise that actually it isn't that unusual for a whole number of reasons. Personally, I reckon that if they weren't incapacitated somehow, they were fighting with the plane too much to respond. It does happen.

Basically, they will want to rectify the problem before informing ATC and potentially distract themselves and/or give a false alarm. In trying to fix the problem, they become so absorbed or disorientated to do anything else, even fix the problem!

Sounds to me like there's a need for an 'Inspector Sands' button - one that lets ATC know the crew are dealing with an issue but without declaring an emergency, so that ATC can keep an eye out and discreetly clear other traffic out of their way. If it reset (with a loud alarm in the cockpit) after a certain amount of time with no comms from the crew, ATC would know the crew have a real problem.

 

[mybike]

Sounds to me like there's a need for an 'Inspector Sands' button - one that lets ATC know the crew are dealing with an issue but without declaring an emergency, so that ATC can keep an eye out and discreetly clear other traffic out of their way. If it reset (with a loud alarm in the cockpit) after a certain amount of time with no comms from the crew, ATC would know the crew have a real problem.

The term is "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate", anything that distracts from the first (or second), even pressing a button, is unwelcome.

 

[young Ed]

having never flown a plane my self and having especially never been piloting a plane during an accident i can't be sure but i would have thought that regardless of the amount of training you have in the class room and in flight sims etc when it comes to a real life emergency/accident most people would panic and start messing about with all sorts of things and often things such ATC and radio systems are totally forgotten and missed? after all the pilots are only human, i reckon this may well be the case for even the best of us

but tying in with what @buggi said earlier on about the pilot counteracting everything the copilot did, one possible answer (that may seem far fetched) but has got to be considered is that one could have WANTED to crash the plane. suicidal/kamikaze terrorist related. it was considered for the malaysian air lines mh370 so surely it should be considered for all air crashes?
Cheers Ed

 

[Mad Doug Biker]

having never flown a plane my self and having especially never been piloting a plane during an accident i can't be sure but i would have thought that regardless of the amount of training you have in the class room and in flight sims etc when it comes to a real life emergency/accident most people would panic and start messing about with all sorts of things and often things such ATC and radio systems are totally forgotten and missed? after all the pilots are only human, i reckon this may well be the case for even the best of us

You see people entering into a sort of tunnel vision or just freezing, etc etc, and yes, it seems it can happen to anyone.

but tying in with what @buggi said earlier on about the pilot counteracting everything the copilot did, one possible answer (that may seem far fetched) but has got to be considered is that one could have WANTED to crash the plane. suicidal/kamikaze terrorist related. it was considered for the malaysian air lines mh370 so surely it should be considered for all air crashes?
Cheers Ed

And take 150 innocent lives with you?? Fairly far fetched as you say.

 

[young Ed]

And take 150 innocent lives with you?? Fairly far fetched as you say.

as i said, far fetched but as said it was considered for MH370 so should be kept in mind at least here. every one of the 2,996 dead in the 9/11 attacks were innocent, they were just kamikaze, suicidal hijacking terrorists. who said a pilot couldn't become one, considering they are in a prime position to easily take a few lives with them?
Cheers Ed

 

[Firestorm]

You see people entering into a sort of tunnel vision or just freezing, etc etc, and yes, it seems it can happen to anyone.



And take 150 innocent lives with you?? Fairly far fetched as you say.

LAM loss a year ago was said to be suicide

 

[Firestorm]

http://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/22/list-of-aircraft-accidents-caused-by-pilot-suicide/

from the Aviation safety network

 

[Mad Doug Biker]

http://news.aviation-safety.net/2013/12/22/list-of-aircraft-accidents-caused-by-pilot-suicide/

from the Aviation safety network

I take it all back!

 

[buggi]

I also wondered about suicide or radicalisation.

 

[slowmotion]

I take it all back!

Most of those reported incidents are pure speculation about the pilots' intentions. Even if all the fatalities were malicious, they are a tiny, tiny percentage of airline deaths, which are themselves laughably small per passenger mile.

 

[Accy cyclist]

Most of those reported incidents are pure speculation about the pilots' intentions. Even if all the fatalities were malicious, they are a tiny, tiny percentage of airline deaths, which are themselves laughably small per passenger mile.

If they are proved to be malicious there is little comfort to future passengers that malicious airplane deaths are "laughably small".in numbers

 

[slowmotion]

If they are proved to be malicious there is little comfort to future passengers that malicious airplane deaths are "laughably small".in numbers

Of course that will be of little consolation to the victims' families. I just wished to point out that it really isn't going to happen to you. The chances of dying in an aircrash with a bonkers pilot at the controls are about the same as winning The Lottery without even buying a ticket.....well, almost.

 

[Firestorm]

Just seen a tweet from the Aviation safety network , the NY Times are reporting that the Voice recorder has sounds indicating that a pilot was locked out of the cockpit and can be heard trying to get back in.