HGVs and cyclists

[Simpleton]

OK guys, you don't like being told things you don't like even though they might be very extreme hypothetical ideas.

The problem is from what I can gather class 2/3 short bodied tipper/construction vehicles.

Other than the area directly behind the vehicle. Plus in line with the door/windscreen pillars.
THERE ARE NO BLIND SPOTS ON THAT TYPE OF VEHICLE lets get that straight. The cab has a minimum of three mirrors
on the near side one looking down over the top of the front wheel, the other two looking down the side of the vehicle, a long one
to give full view down the side and to the rear, the smaller one is a wide angle one which is intended to do just what it says. These
three mirrors do just that give the driver a good view down the nearside, remember this is not on a vehicle that is articulated in any
way.
Adding more mirrors cameras won't improve anything if the driver doesn't use them, ( calm down guys and stop cheering) At present
the large % of this type of vehicle is open sided, eg you can see all the chassis. If it is filled in by rails as you find on Class1 vehicles
to prevent someone falling under them, all that will happen is the victim will end up on the floor and roll under the gap that there has
to be, to allow the vehicle ground clearance. Before someone says make them into a skirt that will just push the victim along the floor.
You will also find the odd "cyclists" up the inside leaning on the rails, please don't say it won't happen.

Is there a solution, yes but only through education, I know @classic33 doesn't believe in simulators but you can't put a person there in real
life on the test as someone would get killed. From an articular I read yesterday it seems that this type of accident in London killed 5 women.
Now before anyone says anything lets make this clear, if someone is nervous in heavy traffic, then that is NOT the place for them. They are
male/female an accident waiting to happen. Some people don't like driving there car on a motorway and therefore don't, some don't like
driving at night and likewise don't. Surely if a situation makes you feel bad don't do. That is not picking on anyone nor is it trying to deflect anything
just stating the obvious.

HGV's don't kill cyclists, just the same as guns don't kill people, bad drivers kill cyclists.

Not at all, what you proposed initially regarding test for bikes, licensing etc does not tackle the issue of cyclists dying in London, and as such was (quite rightly) challenged because what you was saying was not right.

However reading the above we seem to be making some headway regarding what the actual problem is. I agree that if someone is nervous that being in a large amount of traffic is not for them, however this should still not make any difference regarding a HGV driver accounting for them in the way that they drive.

I'm sure with your experience (over 1m miles) you have come across all sorts of drivers and riders, you simply adapt the way you drive and in doing so account for what the other person may or may not do. It is what you are paid to do and is what is taught to you when you learn to drive a HGV.

 

[Chris_Kn]

@0-markymark-0 You do seem to have chip on your shoulder about HGV drivers. 'Potential' isn't a crime sorry to say. Plus it isn't usually round town/city construction drivers that fiddle tacho's.
They have no need to, it's the long haul drivers usually.

@Simpleton It shouldn't make a difference, that's why education is the good solution. Plus making it an area of the test, which would be easy to re asses every 12 months.
Experience is something that doesn't happen overnight @Simpleton There are times over the years that situations crop up that the test just doesn't/didn't in '84 address.
Which is why there has always been the question asked by employers "how much experience do you have??" No experience, used to mean no job. But how do you get a job
with no experience?? Driving Agencies at one time, not sure what it's like to-day.

 

[Markymark]

Nothing potential about the complete disregard for the danger posed.. See here. It is rife amongst your industry.

 

[jonny jeez]

1/ Everyone will have to pass a test.
..

Yup

2/ All bikes will have to be MOT'd
..

Ok

3/ Cyclists will need a compulsory insurance
..

Righto

4/ All bikes will need some kind of registration number
..

Sure

5/ New rules will come on law to say what you can and can't do.
..

Gotit

.
6/ Finally as a road user you will pay some kind of duty
..

Fine.

So anyone else find no objection to any of these, for city riding.

I pay strava £40 a year out of brand loyalty, be happy to pay the same to Dave and his crew for the satisfaction of shutting up all those who winge on that I am not trained, hold no licence, pay no duty...yaddah, yaddah, yaddah.....

 

[snorri]

Also go do some research and see how much money the haulage industry puts into the coffers of the treasury,
then go see how much cycling puts in. Money does seem to a have a lot of influence when it comes down to the
bottom line..

Many of us have done the research and wonder why cycling is not getting a fair deal.

 

[ianrauk]

6/ Finally as a road user you will pay some kind of duty

How much do these cars pay in Duty then?

RENAULT Twizy Cargo Electric Van 13kW Auto
RENAULT Twizy Electric Car Urban 13kW Auto
RENAULT Twizy Electric Car Expression 13kW Auto
VW e-Up! Electric Car 60kW Auto
PEUGEOT iOn Electric 47kW Auto
BMW i3 Electric Car 127kW Auto
MITSUBISHI i-MiEV Electric Car Keiko 47kW Auto
CITROEN C-Zero Electric Car 47kW Auto
RENAULT Kangoo Van Z.E.
SMART ed coupe 55kW 74bhp Auto
SMART ed cabrio 55kW 74bhp Auto
VW e-Golf Electric Car 85kW Auto
SUZUKI Celerio 1.0 SZ3 Dualjet
PEUGEOT 208 1.6 BlueHDi Active 75 S&S
RENAULT Clio 1.5 dCi Expression+ 90 Stop and Start ECO
RENAULT Clio 1.5 dCi Expression+ 90 Stop and Start
PEUGEOT 308 1.6 BlueHDi Active 120 S&S
BMW i3 Electric Car 127kW with Range Extender Auto
FORD Fiesta 1.5 Duratorq TDCi Style Econetic 95PS Start/Stop
TOYOTA Yaris Hybrid 1.5 VVT-i Active CVT
VAUXHALL Astra Hatch 1.6 CDTi Design 110PS S/S ecoFLEX
TOYOTA Yaris Hybrid 1.5 VVT-i T3 CVT
PEUGEOT 308 SW 1.6 BlueHDi Active 120 S&S
KIA Rio 1.1 CRDi 1 74hp ISG
TOYOTA Prius Plug-In Hybrid 1.8 VVT-i CVT
RENAULT Zoe Electric Car Expression Nav 65kW Auto
FIAT 500 0.9 TwinAir Pop Star 85HP
NISSAN Leaf Electric Car Visia 80kW Auto
HYUNDAI i20 1.1 CRDi S Blue 75PS
TOYOTA Yaris 1.4 D-4D Icon 5-door
CITROEN C4 Cactus 1.6 BlueHDi Flair 100hphp
CITROEN C3 1.6 BlueHDi Exclusive 100hp
AUDI A3 1.6 TDI ultra SE 110PS
CITROEN C3 1.6 BlueHDi VT 75hp
FIAT 500C 0.9 TwinAir Pop Star 85HP
DACIA Sandero 1.5 dCi Ambiance 90hp
VW Golf 1.6 TDI BlueMotion 110PS
FIAT 500 0.9 TwinAir Pop Star 85HP Dualogic
FIAT 500C 0.9 TwinAir Pop Star 85HP Dualogic
RENAULT Clio 1.5 dCi Dynamique Nav 90 EDC Auto
SKODA Fabia 1.4 TDI S 90PS
VAUXHALL Astra Hatch 1.6 CDTi SRi 110PS S/S ecoFLEX
SEAT Ibiza 1.4 TDI SE Ecomotive 75PS
NISSAN Note 1.5 dCi Visia 90PS
SMART fortwo coupe 1.0 passion 71hp start/stop
AUDI A1 1.6 TDI SE 116PS
TOYOTA Yaris Hybrid 1.5 VVT-i Sport CVT
FORD Focus Electric Electric Car 107kW Auto
PEUGEOT 308 SW 1.6 BlueHDi Allure 120 S&S
TOYOTA Yaris Hybrid 1.5 VVT-i Excel CVT


I'll tell you what. To make you happy, as a cyclist, I will quite happily pay the same amount of duty (VED) as the cars listed above.

 

[bpsmith]

How much do these cars pay in Duty then?

RENAULT Twizy Cargo Electric Van 13kW Auto
RENAULT Twizy Electric Car Urban 13kW Auto
RENAULT Twizy Electric Car Expression 13kW Auto
VW e-Up! Electric Car 60kW Auto
PEUGEOT iOn Electric 47kW Auto
BMW i3 Electric Car 127kW Auto
MITSUBISHI i-MiEV Electric Car Keiko 47kW Auto
CITROEN C-Zero Electric Car 47kW Auto
RENAULT Kangoo Van Z.E.
SMART ed coupe 55kW 74bhp Auto
SMART ed cabrio 55kW 74bhp Auto
VW e-Golf Electric Car 85kW Auto
SUZUKI Celerio 1.0 SZ3 Dualjet
PEUGEOT 208 1.6 BlueHDi Active 75 S&S
RENAULT Clio 1.5 dCi Expression+ 90 Stop and Start ECO
RENAULT Clio 1.5 dCi Expression+ 90 Stop and Start
PEUGEOT 308 1.6 BlueHDi Active 120 S&S
BMW i3 Electric Car 127kW with Range Extender Auto
FORD Fiesta 1.5 Duratorq TDCi Style Econetic 95PS Start/Stop
TOYOTA Yaris Hybrid 1.5 VVT-i Active CVT
VAUXHALL Astra Hatch 1.6 CDTi Design 110PS S/S ecoFLEX
TOYOTA Yaris Hybrid 1.5 VVT-i T3 CVT
PEUGEOT 308 SW 1.6 BlueHDi Active 120 S&S
KIA Rio 1.1 CRDi 1 74hp ISG
TOYOTA Prius Plug-In Hybrid 1.8 VVT-i CVT
RENAULT Zoe Electric Car Expression Nav 65kW Auto
FIAT 500 0.9 TwinAir Pop Star 85HP
NISSAN Leaf Electric Car Visia 80kW Auto
HYUNDAI i20 1.1 CRDi S Blue 75PS
TOYOTA Yaris 1.4 D-4D Icon 5-door
CITROEN C4 Cactus 1.6 BlueHDi Flair 100hphp
CITROEN C3 1.6 BlueHDi Exclusive 100hp
AUDI A3 1.6 TDI ultra SE 110PS
CITROEN C3 1.6 BlueHDi VT 75hp
FIAT 500C 0.9 TwinAir Pop Star 85HP
DACIA Sandero 1.5 dCi Ambiance 90hp
VW Golf 1.6 TDI BlueMotion 110PS
FIAT 500 0.9 TwinAir Pop Star 85HP Dualogic
FIAT 500C 0.9 TwinAir Pop Star 85HP Dualogic
RENAULT Clio 1.5 dCi Dynamique Nav 90 EDC Auto
SKODA Fabia 1.4 TDI S 90PS
VAUXHALL Astra Hatch 1.6 CDTi SRi 110PS S/S ecoFLEX
SEAT Ibiza 1.4 TDI SE Ecomotive 75PS
NISSAN Note 1.5 dCi Visia 90PS
SMART fortwo coupe 1.0 passion 71hp start/stop
AUDI A1 1.6 TDI SE 116PS
TOYOTA Yaris Hybrid 1.5 VVT-i Sport CVT
FORD Focus Electric Electric Car 107kW Auto
PEUGEOT 308 SW 1.6 BlueHDi Allure 120 S&S
TOYOTA Yaris Hybrid 1.5 VVT-i Excel CVT


I'll tell you what. To make you happy, as a cyclist, I will quite happily pay the same amount of duty (VED) as the cars listed above.

I would even pay Twice as much as the above.

 

[Chris_Kn]

Nothing potential about the complete disregard for the danger posed.. See here. It is rife amongst your industry.

Like I said, chip on your shoulder Mark. Try going on youtube and typing in cyclist udertaking, it only comes up with 1800+ examples. Please lets not get into a tit for tat type of discussion at it really serves no purpose.

@jonny jeez It was posted as an exteme Jonny, it would be pretty much unenforceable. Education of bad drivers is the best way forward as I posted earlier.
@ianrauk wouldn't make me happy Ian, it was an extreme example of what might happen. As the thread has moved on some from that, to the point where I
suggested that "awareness education" is a good way forward.

 

[Markymark]

Like I said, chip on your shoulder Mark. Try going on youtube and typing in cyclist udertaking, it only comes up with 1800+ examples. Please lets not get into a tit for tat type of discussion at it really serves no purpose.

@jonny jeez It was posted as an exteme Jonny, it would be pretty much unenforceable. Education of bad drivers is the best way forward as I posted earlier.
@ianrauk wouldn't make me happy Ian, it was an extreme example of what might happen. As the thread has moved on some from that, to the point where I
suggested that "awareness education" is a good way forward.

Do you think drivibg a lorry illegally is the same as a cyckist undertaking? You really are very special.
I would gladly see any la breaking in a 20 tonne truck get prison. Might have stopped those poor sods in Glasgow or bath and countess others beibg killed.

The fact you can equate an illegal hgv being taken off the road to a cyclust undertaking shows breathtaking stupidity.

 

[jonny jeez]

Like I said, chip on your shoulder Mark. Try going on youtube and typing in cyclist udertaking, it only comes up with 1800+ examples. Please lets not get into a tit for tat type of discussion at it really serves no purpose.

@jonny jeez It was posted as an exteme Jonny, it would be pretty much unenforceable. Education of bad drivers is the best way forward as I posted earlier.
@ianrauk wouldn't make me happy Ian, it was an extreme example of what might happen. As the thread has moved on some from that, to the point where I
suggested that "awareness education" is a good way forward.

Sure...my point is that I actually disagree. I have maintained for a long time that there is a good argument to enforce liscencing for cyclists who take to busy city roads. I don't think it would be that hard to enforce either. I see tons of riders proudly wearing their sportive tags, months after they entered, so perhaps a licence would alos be a badge of honour for devoted City riders.

I'm up for it. And would happily partake...and pay. If it helped to adjust other road users impressions of city riders as equals.

 

[jonny jeez]

.

@jonny jeez It was posted as an exteme Jonny, it would be pretty much unenforceable. Education of bad drivers is the best way forward as I posted earlier.
[.

Also, without looking like a pedant, I'm pretty sure this contradicts your comment about it being partly riders fault.

I would rephrase this as "education of ROAD USERS" is the best way forward.

 

[shouldbeinbed]

+ lots to the blue mans post

Also as VED is currently emissions based (barring the odd fart, me and all of my bikes are emission free) so why do so many people propose the government actively discriminates against the cleanest vehicles on the roads.

Maybe we should pay something for the damage to the road surface and structure that bikes cause??? errrr

@Chriskn: Go and look at any supermarket car park in the wet and tell me what the 4 little puddle filled dints in every parking space correspond to and why you'll never see a bike parking facility anywhere with a wheel groove worn into it simply by standing weight. Also there are numerous roads around my way that I can drive along blind by slotting into the grooves worn by other vehicles.

Not only do bikes not create or add to costly road damage but by us being on a bike and not in a car we are 1 less causal factor.

When you think sensibly and without the dog in the manger blinkers on, cycling would qualify for a rebate rather than a charge.

Notwithstanding my choice to ride a bike and be a positive factor in the road and air quality debate ( not being a sandal weaving eco warrior here, simply recognising a fact) I pay Taxes and NI and VED already to subsidise both the damage that motorised vehicles cause and the creation and upkeep of e.g. M roads that I am not allowed to cycle on.

Hows about we install every wheeled vehicle with a smartmeter that assesses the REAL impact it has physically and chemicaly on its environment and charge individual vehicles appropriately - maybe a surcharge for roads that legally preclude other users from their use or suffer greater wear from higher speeds?

That'd be fairer wouldn't it.

 

[summerdays]

Like I said, chip on your shoulder Mark. Try going on youtube and typing in cyclist udertaking, it only comes up with 1800+ examples. Please lets not get into a tit for tat type of discussion at it really serves no purpose.

And how many for close overtakes of cyclists, or left hooks?

 

[classic33]

@Chris_Kn, you've yet to answer the question about why a cycle and rider should be treated & tested as one unit, whilst every other class of vehicle gets rider/driver tested seperatly. You raised it, yet refuse to answer it.

As regards the use of simulators for the test, yes I'm against their use in a test situation. Any final test on which the licence decision is made should be on the road, in realtime. You'd prefer not to do the test on the road as it'd put people in a dangerous situation. Make a mistake on the road and people may get hurt, make the same sort of mistake in a simulator and you walk away safe in the knowledge that it was only a computer simulation.

As said I live near a test centre and use the same roads they do. There are also three specialist heavy haulage companies nearby that use the same roads as me.

The only time I've had a problem with any of them was going to work one morning. Driver in the wrong lane on a roundabout, jumped from the cab, leaving the vehicle to carry on, on its own straight across three lanes, hit the slip lane entrance and then a lampost on the banking. I didn't stop to find out what he did, if he was willing to jump from behind the steering wheel what'd he do to me. Instead a slight detour made on the way home, to explain what happened, was made. He no longer drives for any local company.

 

[Chris_Kn]

OK let's see if we can get a little less OTT posts towards this particular HGV driver

As good as cycling is or isn't for people and the country, if people don't do it it can't. Regardless of any other factors.

@classic33 where did I say they should be tested as one unit, it was you that brought the separate test issue up saying
engine = rider and car = bike, I guess the local GP should be able to test a bike though, or the LBS take someones blood pressure
and check there heart.

So you would put someone in the way on a live test to see if the driver saw them or not and see how he/she reacted???

As for youtube searching @summerdays it really was in response to someone with a chip on there shoulder pointing out
some more 'London' facts. I know how many close calls there probably are, it's a shame you couldn't just have acted on the last
sentence of my post re tit for tat posting.

I really thought this had moved on..