How much is too much?

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Except they aren't. it's quite possible to buy a brand new car that will transport four people and a load of luggage/shopping etc, for less money than one high end road bike that will transport one person and is able to carry bugger all else.
High end bikes are terrible value for money, especially when compared to motorised transport. What do you think costs more in engineering development, a racing motorcycle capable of close to 200 mph or a human powered racing bike? Most people would probably think the former, in which case why is a very fast motorcycle comparable in price to a high end carbon fibre road bike and not several times more expensive?

It's also quite possible to spend over 100k on a car that is just a two seater. So that's 10 times the price of a bike.

No idea on motorbikes but I'd guess they don't minimise the weight as much as bicycles ? They have huge engines to help them and we only have ourselves.

I've never said it's good value to buy a superbike. The difference in performance between a 5 and 10k bike would be minimal.
 

gzoom

Über Member
I've been looking at what bike treat to get my self for big middle age birthday. Whilst I love my 10 year old Trek I find it impossible to justify spending £10k on a new Trek.

The biggest changes in road bike tech appears to be disc brakes and now hiding cables everywhere. A £3-4k Boardman appears to offer the same 'value for money'.

The only vague justification may be a partial electric one, but my Boardman eBike is 'only' £1k more expensive than the non electric version, so even a £10k eBike is hard to justify.

However if you can afford to spend £10k on a pedal bike why not? There are plenty of otherways to waste £10k.
 

SkipdiverJohn

Deplorable Brexiteer
Location
London
High end motorised vehicles do minimise weight if they are performance-oriented.
The point I was making is you can't compare the amount of R&D that goes into making even the most basic motor vehicle with a push bike. You get a lot of bang for your buck if you buy a "low value" brand car. None of them are truly bad, even if brand snobbery means a lot of people will shun them. High end bicycles are grotesquely overpriced and overhyped for what they are, which is just a push bike when all said and done. If you compare a £1k bike to a £300 bike, then yes they are significantly better. But a £10k bike to a £1k bike? No, the incremental improvements are tiny in relation to the cost difference.
 

Chap sur le velo

Über Member
Location
@acknee
High end motorised vehicles do minimise weight if they are performance-oriented.
The point I was making is you can't compare the amount of R&D that goes into making even the most basic motor vehicle with a push bike. You get a lot of bang for your buck if you buy a "low value" brand car. None of them are truly bad, even if brand snobbery means a lot of people will shun them. High end bicycles are grotesquely overpriced and overhyped for what they are, which is just a push bike when all said and done. If you compare a £1k bike to a £300 bike, then yes they are significantly better. But a £10k bike to a £1k bike? No, the incremental improvements are tiny in relation to the cost difference.
I fully acknowledge the accuracy of your facts. However buying a high end bike, unless you are a national standard racer, is really about personal choices of what you value ie. It's subjective and hence your objective facts will change no one's opinions.

A wise fool I know once told me that half the pleasure he got from the Monte Christi Cigars he owned was not in smoking them. It was knowing they were his, thinking about them at home for him to do as he pleased with them.
 

vickster

Legendary Member
I fully acknowledge the accuracy of your facts. However buying a high end bike, unless you are a national standard racer, is really about personal choices of what you value ie. It's subjective and hence your objective facts will change no one's opinions.

A wise fool I know once told me that half the pleasure he got from the Monte Christi Cigars he owned was not in smoking them. It was knowing they were his, thinking about them at home for him to do as he pleased with them.
Was that Bill Clinton? :whistle:
 
Good morning,

For the last few years the aerodynamic efficiency of the frame and the wheels has been the latest big thing meaning that designs have quite a short life and the next generation actually has to be better rather than just different.

The bike that you linked to claims to need 30 watts less to get to 30 mph than the previous model and it seems reasonable to expect that it saves even more over a round tube steel bike. Interestingly it is "quite heavy" at around 7.5kg.

Whether or not the 30 watts saving applies in the real world with multiple wind directions is unknown to me. :-) and as someone who struggles to average over 20mph the saving for me would be around 10 watts or 5% or less, quite a bit more over a round tube steel bike. I could probably get that level of performance improvement in a month or so by training rather than just enjoying the ride if I were so inclined.

But if you compete and are at you peak already then you don't really have a choice, you almost have to buy one.

So is the price unreasonable? Even if there were only three people working for two years, tooling costs and marketing, could easily run in to say £500k plus.

Dealers may be wanting close to a 100% mark-up as customers at these prices level are going to be picky and warranty claims need to be covered, so the complete bike may only be leaving the manufacturer at £5K

Whilst the market for bikes at this level does exist, as well as competitive riders there are also quite a large number of people for whom a £10k spend is inconsequential, a lot more for whom it is a reasonable considered purchase and a even more for whom buying it over 12/24 months makes it fairly painless. There are also quite a few options for these bikes so even at £10k retail they could still lose the makers money!

Clearly a big chunk of this bike can't change over say a £5k bikes as as far as I am aware Dura Ace is only available at one level, there isn't a pro-version and a retail version. Except perhaps in reality regarding availability of larger chain rings, currently even 56 tooth chain rings seem to be very available. :-)

Bye

Ian
 
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or purchaser of a Vauxhall Corsa is likely to consider buying whatever Lewis Hamilton is driving round in circles at the moment.
There's an interesting difference between the car equivalent here:
We CAN buy the EF Nippo team race bikes and ride them on the road (or race them, occasionally, at very low additional cost). Hamilton's F1 title-winning merc is not road-legal :-). The EF Nippo bikes are just as practical on public roads as a £1k "entry" Boardman road bike.

(I know rally driving is a bit different, before some smart-arse mentions that :laugh: )
 
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Rusty Rocket

Active Member
I just checked the link you provided. The bike you linked to is as planned to be used by the EF Education Nippo team in 2021. So the answer to your question is yes, teams competing in the TdF "buy" this bike. But not from Evans, natch, as they get them from Cannondale as their equipment sponsor. So you can expect to see Hugh Carthy or Rigoberto Uran riding this, or a very similar, machine this year. If there is any racing, that is.

Of course all this is just there to dazzle you, as a newcomer to the market. You're no more expected to buy one of these than your average Primark shopper is expected to buy the latest haute couture modelled on the Paris catwalk, or purchaser of a Vauxhall Corsa is likely to consider buying whatever Lewis Hamilton is driving round in circles at the moment. What you are expected to do is notice the name. And maybe favour that name when it comes to buying more modestly priced mass-market products.
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head - I did notice the name (having never heard of them before I started bike shopping about 2 weeks ago), and next time I see something from Cannondale I’ll probably take a second look.
 
I dont know if bike companies make much profit on their super premium bikes, or, like couture fashion it is used to promote the brand as a marketing tool.
Once you get beyond £2K you are getting very little extra for your dosh. Last year's top end Dura Ace groupset is this year's Ultegra. The premium carbon fibre allows frame builders to make frames so light they have to add weights to keep them UCI legal.
If I had £10k that had to be spent on one bike, I would seek out the specialist carbon builders such as Parlee, Sarto, etc. Some of these outfits build the 5K frames for big brands. They will build the bike you want regardless of UCI regulations.
 

CanucksTraveller

Macho Business Donkey Wrestler
Location
Hertfordshire
It's been said already but yes, it's diminishing returns. Once you get much above say, 800GBP the differences start to get smaller as the cost gets bigger. The two graph lines of cost and increased performance will tend to cross after a bit.
In the last decade I've spent roughly 3-400 quid on two ordinary hybrids that are absolutely fine bikes, and then I spent around the 1k to 1.5k mark twice, on one well equipped steel tourer with quite an ordinary / workmanlike drivetrain, and one carbon roadie with a "better" groupset. They are much better bikes, (even if there's nothing wrong with the hybrids). For me personally that's about my sweet spot; They're both really nice bikes that are made well, that ride really well, and do precisely everything I wanted from them. Much more than that price point, and I wouldn't really appreciate the few hundred grammes weight saving, or the slightly smoother shifting, or any of the other incremental gains that another 2, 4 or 8k pound coins might add.
It's clearly worth it to some people, whether it's for the slightly better performance, extra shineyness / better paint, lighter weight, badge cachet, even bragging rights among peers, whatever it might be. I couldn't justify it though, not with this engine.
 
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lejogger

Guru
Location
Wirral
There are usually clear differences between bikes at all price points... although in some cases this may only be 'goodwill' that the frame manufacturer has accrued via its reputation as a sponsor of a top team, or as a boutique brand.

Very generally speaking, once you get to a price point that gets you a carbon frame (>£1-2k) you'll find cheap alloy finishing kit, low end components, and bog standard wheels.
For the vast majority of riders this is absolutely fine for their riding needs, but we're not a society that simply buys what we need, we also buy what we like, what makes us feel good, and sometimes (depending on our individual psychology) what impresses our peers.
As the price increases, so does the quality of all those additional bits. Are they 'necessary'? Probably not. Are they desirable to a lot of folk though? I'd say so.

In 2009 (when I was first starting out) I spent £1k on a Boardman Team Carbon, that was an absolutely cracking bike. Over the course of the following years I had replaced the entire entry level SRAM Rival groupset (that was perfectly fine) with SRAM Red components (because they were lighter and smoother), the alloy bars and seat post with 3T carbon (because they were lighter and fancier), and upgraded the wheels to some deep section Fulcrums (because they rolled better and the freehub made a lovely clacky noise).

The bike should have been perfect, but it wasn't (for me), because it still said 'Boardman' in big white letters. So for probably zero performance gain I bought a second hand Cervelo frameset, some even deeper section wheels and swapped everything over.

For some people, the Boardman branding wouldn't have been an issue... and it's not an issue to me at all, generally. I still have a Boardman CX bike that I use in the winter, I bought the wife a Boardman as a first bike last year. I actually think they're great, and superb value for money (especially in the early days). But I always aspired to have something a bit 'fancier', or perhaps a more established name that felt a bit more 'accepted' on the club ride (not that anyone ever said anything negative about it). And also (and most importantly to me) that gave my loins a little flutter when I thought about going for a ride on it.

It's this aspect of my personality that's driving me in my planning and saving for a titanium build that will ultimately replace the Boardman CX as a winter/tourer/commuter bike, relegating it to a gravelly pootler. I won't be spending £10k, but I'm potentially spending eyewatering amounts, if I end up going down the custom built frame route.

The caveat is that this will be a bike for life. Titanium frames don't really change with fashion in quite the same way that carbon ones do. If you spend £10k on this season's aero frame, it might feel old next year when the new trends emerge. Look at the discontinued Venge, for example. Other than disc brakes and slightly wider tyre clearance, has there been much movement in titanium frames in the past 20 years?

It's not for everyone, but I don't have any negative feelings to anyone spending their hard earned cash on whatever bike that makes them happy. Well, maybe jealousy. :blush:
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
If you're on £100k pa and have a chunk of savings then £10k isn't a big deal to spend on a bike. If you're used to spending £50k on a car it sounds like a reasonable price point. There are enough people in that bracket to make the market work. Happily spending £10k on a family holiday, same on a bike. Last thing they want is a bike the same as all the others on the road and they will pay a premium for exclusivity. Same as if you drive a Bentley

However, if that isn't the world you live in, £10k sounds like too much money to spend.
 
Most of the riders I know who buy top of the line bikes race them for a season or so and then sell them. So maybe spending 9k on a bike this season, race it, putting maybe a couple hundred miles on the bike, and then sell it for 6-7k. They feel that a budget of about 2-3k pa to have the lightest, fastest bike available is worth it to them. My last mtb was purchased by a local cat 1 rider, maybe retail about 8k, he got it through the store/team discount for 6.5k, maintained by the shop during the race season, and picked up by me for 4k. Great bike, ridden only by a cat 1 whippet so minimal abuse or damage.

I'm looking for a new mtb for this year and my price cutoff seems to be about 5k. I like having a great full sus frame (1.5k), smooth front sus (1k), strong carbon wheels (1k), flawless drive train (1k) and bullet proof contact points (.5k).
 
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Rusty Rocket

Active Member
Most of the riders I know who buy top of the line bikes race them for a season or so and then sell them. So maybe spending 9k on a bike this season, race it, putting maybe a couple hundred miles on the bike, and then sell it for 6-7k. They feel that a budget of about 2-3k pa to have the lightest, fastest bike available is worth it to them. My last mtb was purchased by a local cat 1 rider, maybe retail about 8k, he got it through the store/team discount for 6.5k, maintained by the shop during the race season, and picked up by me for 4k. Great bike, ridden only by a cat 1 whippet so minimal abuse or damage.

I'm looking for a new mtb for this year and my price cutoff seems to be about 5k. I like having a great full sus frame (1.5k), smooth front sus (1k), strong carbon wheels (1k), flawless drive train (1k) and bullet proof contact points (.5k).
That’s interesting, I’d assumed they’d be something you buy and keep for a while, not ship off after a season.
I guess at the very top of the range stuff like this where we’re probably talking ms in gear shifts and grams in weight saving the models become out of date a lot quicker than your “average” bikes.
 
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