Incident in Glasgow - 6 feared dead :(

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jefmcg

jefmcg

Guru
Location
The dark heart of the former British Empire
swee'pea99 said:
I'm not sure that's actually correct. That's how I always understood it, but I seem to remember saying something along those lines in another thread once, and getting picked up by, I believe, CopperCyclist, who said that this was a common misconception, but that in truth there doesn't need to be any premeditated intent to kill for a murder charge to stick; all that was required was deliberately choosing a course of action which any reasonable person would have thought might very well lead to a death. Or something like that.
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You may well be right. I still (not a lawyer!!) feel it's probably not murder. If you got into a bin lorry off your face on ketamine, that's probably a murder charge. When it's a condition that very occasionally leads to black out - more of a grey area.

Either way, because the prosecution likes the sounds of their own voices, this will never be tested in court.
 
P

Profpointy

Legendary Member
jefmcg said:
You may well be right. I still (not a lawyer!!) feel it's probably not murder. If you got into a bin lorry off your face on ketamine, that's probably a murder charge. When it's a condition that very occasionally leads to black out - more of a grey area.

Either way, because the prosecution likes the sounds of their own voices, this will never be tested in court.
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that wouldn't be murder either. Doing something criminally irresponsible, maybe outrageously and deliberately so, and causing death is manslaughter. Deliberately attempting to kill or seriously injure someone resulting in death would be murder, and even then downgraded for "heat of the moment" reasons.
 
B

Brandane

Legendary Member
swee'pea99 said:
I'm not sure that's actually correct. That's how I always understood it, but I seem to remember saying something along those lines in another thread once, and getting picked up by, I believe, CopperCyclist, who said that this was a common misconception, but that in truth there doesn't need to be any premeditated intent to kill for a murder charge to stick; all that was required was deliberately choosing a course of action which any reasonable person would have thought might very well lead to a death. Or something like that.
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That is what I was taught at the Scottish Police College. I think the term used was "a wilful act so reckless as to have complete disregard for the circumstances" would be enough to constitute murder. The example used was; someone throws a stone at a moving bus, intending to smash the window but instead the stone hits the driver who loses control and crashes the bus, killing a passenger. That is murder by the legal definition, but obviously sometimes prosecutors will go for the lesser charge of manslaughter if it is more likely to get a guilty verdict from a jury.

The bin lorry driver is a complete nobber who deserves all that is now going to be coming his way, both from the legal system and, worse for him, from the public.
 
Accy cyclist

Accy cyclist

Legendary Member
Location
The hills of Accrington
This fellow is taking the piss. He has shown no remorse or any sympathy for those who died as a result of his selfish lying actions. If only he'd blacked out while driving the car and hit a brick wall and died. Then some sort of justice would've been done!
 
Pale Rider

Pale Rider

Legendary Member
Murder for the bin lorry deaths is a non-starter.

Murder is proved if the defendant 'only' intended really serious harm and, of course, the victim died.

I don't think even the victims' families would say the driver intended to do serious harm to their loved ones.

As regards driving a car in the intervening period, I see his car driving licence was suspended administratively by the DVLA, and he was also banned from driving HGVs for a year.

I expect his defence - or at least mitigation - will be: "I knew I was banned from driving a lorry, but I thought I could still drive a car."
 
G

glasgowcyclist

Charming but somewhat feckless
Location
Scotland
Tin Pot

Tin Pot

Guru
glasgowcyclist said:
The FAI report is now published: http://www.scotland-judiciary.org.uk/10/1531/Fatal-Accident-Inquiry--Glasgow-bin-lorry-crash (Summary)

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=77d4faa6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7 (Full determination)

It shows the driver used lies, deception and concealment of facts to selfishly maintain his position as a lorry driver at the cost of 6 deaths and 17 others seriously injured.
daffodil



GC
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This seems to focus a fair amount on the doctors behaviour rather than the abject and repeated lying by the daffodil.

Is that what the inquiry was for, institutional improvements not blame?
 
glenn forger

glenn forger

Guest
It's farcical. Of course he lied. he lied and lied and lied, but because he was unconscious when he killed he had no criminal intent. What a crock.
 
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