Keeping safe and being seen on the road

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Alex321

Veteran
Location
South Wales
The emboldened is patently not true, unless we undertake the same precautions for other activities.

Cycling is singled out as (1) requiring risk reduction even when risks are already low (actually negative) and (2) implementing risk reductions which are almost entirely ineffective (helmets, hi viz)

It defies logic.

So what makes you think I don't?

It isn't untrue unless "we" do so for other activities, it would be patently untrue only if I don't do so, since I was only talking for myself there, not on behalf of anybody else.

And BTW, it isn't possible for risks to be negative, so I have no idea what you are on about with that comment.
 

icowden

Veteran
Location
Surrey
Cycling is singled out as (1) requiring risk reduction even when risks are already low (actually negative) and (2) implementing risk reductions which are almost entirely ineffective (helmets, hi viz)
Ask an A&E doctor whether cycle helmets are almost entirely ineffective. I think you may find they will disagree with you.
 

Alex321

Veteran
Location
South Wales
Ask an A&E doctor whether cycle helmets are almost entirely ineffective. I think you may find they will disagree with you.

A lot of people seem to think that because they don't reduce the number of deaths, they are ineffective.

But that is not what they are intended to do. Crashes that result in death are rarely going to be close enough for a helmet to prevent it.

What helmets do is reduce the chance of lesser head injuries - which can still have a significant effect on your life.
 

Mike_P

Guru
Location
Harrogate
Too true, my possible unique breakage of my collar bone whilst still sat on the bike crashed into a tree, an overhanging branch doing for the collar bone, also had me head plant the trunk and what the impact effect would have been without a helmet on I would not like to have experienced. Still ended up looking like I had been on fight with a cut ear and black eye.
 

icowden

Veteran
Location
Surrey
I assume their training course includes a module on cycle helmets?

Seems an odd assumption.
 

Profpointy

Legendary Member
Ask an A&E doctor whether cycle helmets are almost entirely ineffective. I think you may find they will disagree with you.

A&E doctor is unlikely to have looked at the statistics and will only see injured people and hence is not in general well placed to have an opinion, though it likely won't stop them having an opinion.

I stopped wearing a helmet after seeing statistics pre and post compulsion in Australia and Ontario. Wearing rates went up from not-many to 90%+ yet killed and seriously injured rates didn't change much, maybe got slightly worse, but cycling rates did go down. Seems that on balance they have little or no benefit. I stopped wearing one.

There was a (possibly flawed) study which suggested cars passed closer for helmet wearers, which isn't inconsistent with the "risk compensation" behaviour which is well established.

In any case you are quite obviously more likely to bash your head if wearing a helmet as it's an inch or more bigger all round -though I've had people argue otherwise, which is nuts. Increasing the chance of hitting your head could cancel out the benefit of padding if you are hit - particularly for a serious hit.

The other rather bizarre thing is people and organisations flat out lying about helmet effectiveness as if it's a moral crusade. Safety campaigners trotted out the Rivera Thompson Rivera "90% reduction" for years after that had been repudiated, and even disowned by one of the authors. (Basically they'd compared helmeted middle class kids cycling in leafy suburbs and parks with helmetless inner city kids on busy roads - I'm paraphrasing but it was along those lines".
 

Alex321

Veteran
Location
South Wales
Please share a reputable paper that shows this.

Did you have a point?

If you are disputing what is utterly obvious, then please provide some evidence.

If you aren't disputing it, then why the need for me to provide something I have no intention of bothering to look up.
 

Ajax Bay

Guru
Location
East Devon
What helmets do is reduce the chance of lesser head injuries

Please share a reputable paper that shows this.

If you are disputing what is utterly obvious
You are asserting that "helmets reduce the chance of lesser head injuries". I appreciate you believe this, relying on intuition (my father-in-law was similarly reliant, may his soul rest in peace). I'm assuming here that you're not talking banging your head/helmet on overhead scaffolding, or similar.
If this is so, surely there will be some excellent science to support this.
I suggest this is not so, let alone 'utterly obvious', and merely invite you to share the paper/science on which you found your conviction.
However @mjr makes a good point below - so this is your 'last chance' ^_^
trying to avoid the tedious games of ping-pong "what's your evidence?" "not telling until you post yours" "no you first" that these threads sometimes descend into. So don't repeatedly ask for it: ask once, then just note its continued absence and move on.
 

MontyVeda

a short-tempered ill-controlled small-minded troll
...
Cycling is singled out as (1) requiring risk reduction even when risks are already low (actually negative) and (2) implementing risk reductions which are almost entirely ineffective (helmets, hi viz)

It defies logic.

Have you noticed though, when trying to explain this sort of thing to people, that they look at us like we're complete idiots.
 
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Alex321

Veteran
Location
South Wales
You are asserting that "helmets reduce the chance of lesser head injuries". I appreciate you believe this, relying on intuition (my father-in-law was similarly reliant, may his soul rest in peace). I'm assuming here that you're not talking banging your head/helmet on overhead scaffolding, or similar.
If this is so, surely there will be some excellent science to support this.
I suggest this is not so, let alone 'utterly obvious', and merely invite you to share the paper/science on which you found your conviction.
However @mjr makes a good point below - so this is your 'last chance' ^_^

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/9/9/e027845

This actually suggests more effect on deaths than I though likely as well although those are I think only among those who reach hospital alive.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7025438/
 

CharleyFarley

Senior Member
Location
Japan
The wearing of bike helmets is evidently a controversial issue.

Some years ago I rode motorcycle escort for the Seagull Century event from Salisbury State University in Maryland. We were warned that toward the end of the 100 miles ride, cyclists will be tired, and there would likely be accidents. In the last couple of miles, several riders were drafting when one of their front wheels touched the rear wheel of the guy in front. I was right there and the thud he made when he hit the ground was sickening. He was unconscious. His helmet had hit the road, tilted to the side of his head and he hit the road again. opening a big cut in his head. I think that had he not worn a helmet, he might have been in a much worse condition. At least it took the initial hit.

I prefer riding alone, and I rely on observations more than anything else. Twenty-seven years of riding motorcycles, and taking three Experienced Rider Courses over ten years, helped me to be aware of things that some cyclists might miss. I don't assume anything about car drivers but I do anticipate their moves. I'm quite aware that my baseball cap won't do anything to protect me in the event I should hit something or take a fall, but it's my choice. The biggest problem I see with many Florida cyclists, is that they tend to wear dark clothing, even at night, and have no lights on their bikes. I read of more being killed while crossing a road then being hit by a car from behind. Carelessness probably accounts for some of the crashes.

One last thing: A few years ago, just before sunrise, I hit someone's ridiculously high homemade speed bump. I went over the handlebars and landed on my chest, but my head didn't hit the road. I lost skin from my elbows and knees, and got a couple of cracked ribs. I guess it depends on how we land when we take a fall. That taught me not to assume a dark road is without obstacles. My cheap bike light, at the time, was little more than useless.
 
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