Let's talk about tents.

[HobbesOnTour]

My tent requirements are

g) the ability to close up and keep the weather out and the warm in (i.e. a Euro style tent, with a down to ground outer and not much mesh on the inner).

.

Hi Andrew,
A bit of a philosophical question on this one....
I'e always thought that the purpose of a tent is to keep the worst of the elements off you - wind, rain & possibly snow as well as bugs & critters. But most especially dry.

I would think that the warmer the tent keeps you, the greater the condensation, especially in colder weather. The more condensation, the greater the risk of wet clothes/gear/inner, especially when packing up and moving on as we do on our bikes. My tent seldom stays in the same place for more than 1 night.

Do you find condensation to be a bigger issue in your "warm" tents?

And for others, is it the role of the tent to keep you warm or dry or.....?

Thanks!

 

[Siclo]

To clarify, is this tent still current?

There seem to be a few variations now, this is the closest one to mine https://www.vaude.com/en-GB/Products/Tents/3-Person/Mark-UL-3P?number=118064000

One might ask why it was discontinued, though I fear I know.

Go on then, educate me please.

 

[Blue Hills]

Because companies continuously "improve" reinvent stuff to maintain/improve margins. Inbuit obsolescence etc. Marketing etc. And fashion. Applies to lots of things, including cycling stuff. Life can be so much simpler if you hop out of this.

I stress that I am not particularly criticising vaude, they do much good stuff.

Edit, though not taking owt back from my above comment, i generally avoid anything labelled ultra light for cycle touring.

Thanks for your nice helpful post.

 

[Blue Hills]

Ps, excellent question hobbes, not so much philosophical (often bulllshit) as eminently practical. Look forward to replies.

 

[classic33]

Hi Andrew,
A bit of a philosophical question on this one....
I'e always thought that the purpose of a tent is to keep the worst of the elements off you - wind, rain & possibly snow as well as bugs & critters. But most especially dry.

I would think that the warmer the tent keeps you, the greater the condensation, especially in colder weather. The more condensation, the greater the risk of wet clothes/gear/inner, especially when packing up and moving on as we do on our bikes. My tent seldom stays in the same place for more than 1 night.

Do you find condensation to be a bigger issue in your "warm" tents?

And for others, is it the role of the tent to keep you warm or dry or.....?

Thanks!

The tents role is to keep me dry, the sleeping bag can keep me warm.

You can lose a fair bit of body heat to the elements, so pitching flysheet only in windy conditions can keep you warm by just keeping you sheltered.

One reason a seperate inner is preferrable to a single skin tent is there is less condensation in the sleeping compartment.

 

[graham bowers]

Hi Andrew,
A bit of a philosophical question on this one....
I'e always thought that the purpose of a tent is to keep the worst of the elements off you - wind, rain & possibly snow as well as bugs & critters. But most especially dry.

I would think that the warmer the tent keeps you, the greater the condensation, especially in colder weather. The more condensation, the greater the risk of wet clothes/gear/inner, especially when packing up and moving on as we do on our bikes. My tent seldom stays in the same place for more than 1 night.

Do you find condensation to be a bigger issue in your "warm" tents?

And for others, is it the role of the tent to keep you warm or dry or.....?

Thanks!

Tent to keep me dry. Sleeping bag and mat to keep me warm.

The airborne moisture in the tent that the occupants breath out overnight is in the region of a half a litre each, and ventilation is the way to control condensation from breath.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Tent to keep me dry. Sleeping bag and mat to keep me warm.

The airborne moisture in the tent that the occupants breath out overnight is in the region of a half a litre each, and ventilation is the way to control condensation from breath.

Hi Graham,
That's my thinking too.

In the case of a "warm" tent (by that I mean one with less mesh, or at least the option of covering up that mesh), is it right to assume that the warmer average temperature inside leads to more condensation than in a "colder" tent?

 

[Profpointy]

Hi Graham,
That's my thinking too.

In the case of a "warm" tent (by that I mean one with less mesh, or at least the option of covering up that mesh), is it right to assume that the warmer average temperature inside leads to more condensation than in a "colder" tent?

Basically you need to leave enough of the inner unzipped to get an airflow. Even a Hilly, excellent as it may be, isn't magic, and this still applies. Otherwise, you'll get damp. "You cannea break the laws of physics" as a wise engineer once said.

 

[graham bowers]

Hi Graham,
That's my thinking too.

In the case of a "warm" tent (by that I mean one with less mesh, or at least the option of covering up that mesh), is it right to assume that the warmer average temperature inside leads to more condensation than in a "colder" tent?

I think its fair to say that a tent with much mesh on the inner will be both colder and suffer less condensation within confines of the inner tent than one with less mesh. The reason it will be colder is because the ventilation through the mesh allows more air changes, so the concentration of water vapour in the air will be less. If the mesh were to be covered, then you could expect fewer air changes would lead to it being warmer and have a higher air moisture content and so the potential for condensation. I see the condensation being the result of higher moisture content in the air, and the warmer temperature is just another consequence of fewer air changes.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Basically you need to leave enough of the inner unzipped to get an airflow. Even a Hilly, excellent as it may be, isn't magic, and this still applies. Otherwise, you'll get damp. "You cannea break the laws of physics" as a wise engineer once said.

I think its fair to say that a tent with much mesh on the inner will be both colder and suffer less condensation within confines of the inner tent than one with less mesh. The reason it will be colder is because the ventilation through the mesh allows more air changes, so the concentration of water vapour in the air will be less. If the mesh were to be covered, then you could expect fewer air changes would lead to it being warmer and have a higher air moisture content and so the potential for condensation. I see the condensation being the result of higher moisture content in the air, and the warmer temperature is just another consequence of fewer air changes.

Right so, if I'm understanding all this correctly, the warmer the tent, the more the condensation.

Why then is there a market for warmer tents? What's the advantage?

If the advice is to have as much ventilation as possible, why then inhibit that ventilation in the design?

 

[Blue Hills]

Can't you also get dampness inside the tent if the air outside is particularly dewy/moist?

I awoke in my Lodge 2 a few months ago to find the outside of my sleeping bag sodden. I am pretty sure I had left some vents open but on getting out of the tent I did notice that the air seemed particularly heavy mosture. It hadn't rained though and my faithful Lodge 2 hadn't leaked, though from seeing my sleeping bag you would have thought it had.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Can't you also get dampness inside the tent if the air outside is particularly dewy/moist?

I awoke in my Lodge 2 a few months ago to find the outside of my sleeping bag sodden. I am pretty sure I had left some vents open but on getting out of the tent I did notice that the air seemed particularly heavy mosture. It hadn't rained though and my faithful Lodge 2 hadn't leaked, though from seeing my sleeping bag you would have thought it had.

My take on this, is that when there's a lot more moisture in the air, then there's more propensity for condensation. In those cases, it's better to limit the ventilation (keep the wet air out) and suffer the condensation from the "unventilated" inner, which hopefully is less than the "ventilated" inner.

Maybe I've just answered my own question from my previous post? :-)

 

[Blue Hills]

Thanks for the reply hobbes.

You may well be right - but hell it's complicated! - maybe someone is working on a clever in/out mositure meter. Think I'll stick to venting the tent, taking whatever comes, and be thankfull that I don't use a down bag and have eventually decided not to move to one.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

Thanks for the reply hobbes.

You may well be right - but hell it's complicated! - maybe someone is working on a clever in/out mositure meter. Think I'll stick to venting the tent, taking whatever comes, and be thankfull that I don't use a down bag and have eventually decided not to move to one.

That's my thinking too!
I'd rather be cold than wet. If I'm cold, I can warm up. If I'm wet (or my gear is!) it's not so easy to get dry. And then I'll be cold and unable to warm back up.

My best tent was a cheapy tunnel tent with a bathtubfloor and the rest was mesh. Winter or summer never an issue with condensation. Stood up to massive storms, sometimes by the skin of its teeth!
My newer tent says all the right things in its promo material, but condensation is an issue as is set-up.

 

[Profpointy]

Right so, if I'm understanding all this correctly, the warmer the tent, the more the condensation.

Why then is there a market for warmer tents? What's the advantage?

If the advice is to have as much ventilation as possible, why then inhibit that ventilation in the design?

Like anything it's a compromise.

1) Warmer tent - any tent is just giving you two layers of thin cloth, to keep the warm air in. I'd almost go as far as to say that all tents of similar size will be similarly warm, regardless of quality. (Obviously a bigger tent will feel colder as it'll take more of your body heat to warm it up)

2) You don't wan't "as much ventilation as possible" else, to be slightly silly about it, you could simply sleep under an umbrella. You want enough ventilation to allow water vapour (from your breath) out, but not so much ventilation that you get cold. Same principle as cracking a window open in a bedroom, or especially a bathroom, to avoid condensation. You don't fling the windows in your house open in the middle of winter, but do keep a bit of a fresh air thing going. Tents are the same. Unzip the inner a little bit to get enough airflow, but not so much that it's freezing. It's an art to get it just right. You need controllable ventilation, rather than lots. Zip everything up tight, and you'll get condesation. In the summer you need lots of ventilation to avoid getting too hot, but then need the mesh zipped up to keep bitey flies out. The better tents have a fly screen so you can still have airflow whilst closing it up against insects. Some, especially American brand, tents, have a lot of mesh in the inner, but without a covering layer, so aren't so good when it's cold as there's too much ventilation