Like a Brompton but not like a Brompton

[roley poley]

see" how to fix a flat bicycle tyre keeping wheel on" on youtube he does it on a front ....sheldon brown does one called"exposing the innertube without removing wheel"

 

[Pale Rider]

@Gunk is spot on, the latest canti brakes are well up to snuff.

I found the earlier brakes dodgy, although some said fitting certain pads could sort them.

Are you buying new now?

If so, all will be well.

Telling the difference between brakes was easy enough, the crappy ones had a longer, curved lever.

The better ones have an angular, almost MTB style lever.

Removing the rear wheel is a difficult job.

My local bike shop is a Brompton dealer, and they have had several Brommies in with gear issues due to the rear wheel being refitted incorrectly.

My dream Brommie would have Tannus solid tyres - the LBS is a dealer for them.

A mate of mine had them on his Brompton.

He said they rode well, but wore out fairly quickly.

He uses his bike a lot, so if I could wear out Tannus tyres on a Brompton I'd be delighted because it would mean I'd banged in the miles.

 

[berlinonaut]

@Gunk is spot on, the latest canti brakes are well up to snuff.

Since when do Bromptons have canti brakes?

Removing the rear wheel is a difficult job.

My local bike shop is a Brompton dealer, and they have had several Brommies in with gear issues due to the rear wheel being refitted incorrectly.

Undoing and refitting the rear wheel is a five minute job and not at all difficult. The maladjusted gears you mention can only be the ones of the hub - the three speed hub on a Brompton is in no way different in terms of adjustment to any three gear hubs of the last 100 years. So if you have an issue with the Brompton here you'll have an issue with a lot of other bikes, too. The one thing that makes the Brompton a tiny bit more complicated than other bikes on the rear wheel is the chain tensioner. Absolutely no issue once you've got to know how to refit it with a single movement of your hand. However, the first time there may be a bit of head-scratching involved.

 

[berlinonaut]

all my bikes are hub geared and to mend a puncture on the rear I don't take the wheel off .Turn the bike upside down and working on the non drive side take that bead off the rim,pull out innertube fix and re insert.Seen it done in Holland where they often have chaincases to deal with too.

I highly doubt that is is possible with a Brompton on the road and would like to see it. With the Dutch bikes it is kind of common as the closed chain protector on them is a dog to remove and unmount. However - they are using a special spread-tool for those bikes to be able to change the tube w/o removing the wheel.

 

[Pale Rider]

I think Brompton called the new levers 'cantilever levers' due to their shape.

Whatever, the point is made, the new brakes work nicely, the old ones were crap.

As regards the rear wheel, the owner of my local Brompton dealer told me the rear wheel is a simple job.

It is - for him - having worked on Bromptons for more than 20 years.

Many new owners have problems with it, so that point is also well made.

 

[roley poley]

I highly doubt that is is possible with a Brompton on the road and would like to see it. With the Dutch bikes it is kind of common as the closed chain protector on them is a dog to remove and unmount. However - they are using a special spread-tool for those bikes to be able to change the tube w/o removing the wheel.

I can do it on a Brompton that's patch the innertube not swap it

 

[berlinonaut]

Brompton S6L Tern Verge P10 and lastly Moulton TSR8/9. So I just sold my Kona Sutra which although a good bike was a heavy beast at almost 15kg plus panniers 😮. So im interested in going lighter this time but also something different with a bit of fun thrown in.

These are three vastly different bikes - you should ride them each and will possibly be able to find you favorite easily.

The Moulton is a beauty to look at and offers the most comfortable ride of the lot. However: If you are a tall person it needs a lot of fiddling to make it fit to you (been there, done that - nightmare). Luggage capacity is limited (though enough if you don't want to take the kitchen sink with you) and you are locked into the (expensive) carriers and bags from Moulton. The TSR is a fast bike (I love mine) but - partly due to the suspension - a bit on the heavy side - especially when you opt for the hub geared 8 speed version you probably won't gain very much compared to your Sutra - maybe 1 or 2kg. In general the TSR suffers from cheap, entry level components - in fact especially with the entry models like TSR8/9 you buy a frame with the most basic and cheap parts to make it rideable. The paint job is not of high quality either - within minutes you get chips in the paint. So, as much as I like my TSR, it definitively has it's downsides. I bought mine used a couple of years ago and until today almost every bit got exchanged. Not for bling bling but for making it a better bike. So what looked like a bargain in the beginning became a reasonably expensive bike over time....
Lastly the Moulton is technically not a folder but a split apart bike. Sufficient if you transport it in the boot of your car but way suboptimal for a daily commute that partly uses public transport. It is vastly uncomfortable having to carry the two halves of a split apart bike - they are heavy, they are in the way, they are big. Even if you use the dedicated bags for it (that are more or less impossible to take with you on the bike). Too bad that it cries out "steal me" - not a bike to leave locked in the streets. That limits my usage of the TSR massively. A bit impractial so to say. And clearly rather a tourer than a commuter.
If you are aware of these topics and can live with it the Moulton is a lovely bike and definitively recommendable.

The Brompton is what it is: Ingeniously practical, a bit quirky looking and surprisingly universal. A bike that just works and can do way, way more than one assumes on first hand. It fits riders of all sizes, has an ingenious luggage system and - no matter what prejudices exist - is of very good quality (though you won't get respect from your mates for the components of the bike). It is faster than one would assume but definitively way slower than the Moulton and it's biggest limitation is bad terrain. Cobblestones and off road are not his friends. Other than that it is THE "everywhere you go" bike - you can always have it with you, it always works and never complains. From commuting to touring to traveling - everything is possible. A good friend and more a tool than a bike. I barely leave home without it and it definitively has changed my way of transport massively.

The Tern is a different story. Personally I do not like them as a brand (though I still have one). For my taste they are lacking a bit of soul. While the Moulton is a stiff bike (but comfy due to the suspension) the Tern is more of a harsh ride due to the aluminium frame. While the Brompton folds small the Tern is a big, impractical package, folding is cumbersome and it is a dog to lump around. So maybe I have prejudices. I've owned mine for like six or seven years and barely ever used it as it turned out: for every purpose I do have at least one better bike, typically more than one and the difference is huge. Furthermore Tern has a history of quality issues with braking frames in conjunction with a massive lack of transparency thereof and this pulls me even further apart. There are a lot of people who like them - I'm not one of those.

 

[berlinonaut]

I think Brompton called the new levers 'cantilever levers' due to their shape.

Whatever, the point is made, the new brakes work nicely, the old ones were crap.

I would differentiate a bit: Brompton invented the new brake levers already back in 2013 and I would and do heavily recommend those. They can also be retrofitted to older bikes w/o issues (apart from the cost). The brake calipers stayed the same since 2000 (!) when Brompton invented the dual pivot brake on the front on the MK3. The rear one changed to dual pivot as well in 2007 (but has not been an issue before anyway) and those calipers stayed identical until 2018 apart from a slight change in color every couple of years. Then Brompton invented new, all black calipers that can even be exchanged between front and rear wheel, being identical. I do not feel they would brake any better than the earlier ones - it is probably just cheaper for Brompton having to stock just one type of caliper instead of four: Front and rear and each of those in black and silverish.
So basically with every Brompton since 20 years the brakes themselves have been and are fine. Better handles, better cables (Jagwire) and better brake pads (Koolstop salmon or Swissstop blue) make all the difference (in that order) and all of those can be retrofitted (if they don't have already).

 

[Gunk]

The only point worth mentioning is that to fit the latest brakes to a pre 2007 bike is that you have to drill the fork out to accommodate the recessed Allen bolt, rear is a simple swap.

 

[macp]

@Gunk is spot on, the latest canti brakes are well up to snuff.

I found the earlier brakes dodgy, although some said fitting certain pads could sort them.

Are you buying new now?

If so, all will be well.

Telling the difference between brakes was easy enough, the crappy ones had a longer, curved lever.

The better ones have an angular, almost MTB style lever.

Removing the rear wheel is a difficult job.

My local bike shop is a Brompton dealer, and they have had several Brommies in with gear issues due to the rear wheel being refitted incorrectly.

My dream Brommie would have Tannus solid tyres - the LBS is a dealer for them.

A mate of mine had them on his Brompton.

He said they rode well, but wore out fairly quickly.

He uses his bike a lot, so if I could wear out Tannus tyres on a Brompton I'd be delighted because it would mean I'd banged in the miles.

Thanks PR
I am buying new but when depends entirely on me as Im not really impulsive and spend far too much time thinking about it. Everything seems to be pointing to the Brompton as the bike of choice but now im thinking I only need a 3 speeder

 

[macp]

These are three vastly different bikes - you should ride them each and will possibly be able to find you favorite easily.

The Moulton is a beauty to look at and offers the most comfortable ride of the lot. However: If you are a tall person it needs a lot of fiddling to make it fit to you (been there, done that - nightmare). Luggage capacity is limited (though enough) and you are locked in the (expensive) carriers and bags from Moulton. The TSR is a fast bike (I love mine) but due to the suspension a bit on the heavy side - especially when you opt for the hub geared 8 speed version you won't probably gain very much compared to your Sutra - maybe 1 or 2kg. In general the TSR suffers from cheap, entry level components - in fact especially with the entry models like TRR8/9 you buy a frame with the most basic and cheap things to make it rideable. The paint job is not of high quality either - within minutes you get chips in the paint. So as much as I like my TSR it definitively has it's downsides. I bought mine used a couple of years ago and until today almost every bit got exchanged. Not for bling bling but for making it a better bike. So what looked like a bargain in the beginning became a reasonable expensive bike over time....
Lastly the Moulton is technically not a folder but a split apart bike. Sufficient if you transport it in the boot of your car but way suboptimal for a daily commute that partly uses public transport. It is vastly uncomfortable having to carry to halves of a split apart bike - they are heavy, they are in the way, they are big. Even if you use the dedicated bags for it (that are more or less impossible to take with you on the bike). Too bad that it cries out "steal me" - not a bike to leave locked in the streets. That limits myy usage of the TSR massively. A bit impractial so to say.
If you are aware of these topics and can live with it the Moulton is a lovely bike and definitively recommendable.

The Brompton is what it is: Ingeniously practical, a bit quirky looking and surprisingly universal. A bike that just works and can do way, way more than one assumes on first hand. It fits riders of all sizes, has an ingenious luggage system and - no matter what prejudices exist - is of very good quality (though you won't get respect from your mates for the components of the bike). It is faster than one would assume but definitively way slower than the Moulton and it's biggest limitation is bad terrain. Cobblestones and off road are not his friends. Other than that it is THE "everywhere you go" bike - you can always have it with you, it always works and never complains. A good friend and more a tool than an bike. I barely leave home without it and it definitively has changed my way of transport massively.

The Tern is a different story. Personally I do not like them as a brand (though I still have one). For my taste they are lacking a bit of soul. While the Moulton is a stiff bike (but comfy due to the suspension) the Tern is more of a harsh ride due to the aluminium frame. While the Brompton folds small the Tern is a big, impractical package, folding is cumbersome and it is a dog to lump around. So maybe I have prejudices. I've owned mine for like six or seven years and barely ever used it as it turned out: for every purpose I do have at least one better bike, typically more than one and the difference is huge. Furthermore Tern has a history of quality issues with braking frames in conjunction with a massive lack of transparency thereof and this pulls me even further apart. There are a lot of people who like them - I'm not one of those.

Great reply thanks but riding them will be easier said than done and not just because of lockdown.

 

[Gunk]

Thanks PR
I am buying new but when depends entirely on me as Im not really impulsive and spend far too much time thinking about it. Everything seems to be pointing to the Brompton as the bike of choice but now im thinking I only need a 3 speeder

3 speeder is fine, it’s all you need.

 

[berlinonaut]

Great reply thanks but riding them will be easier said than done and not just because of lockdown.

I do not recall why exactly you want a folder but you should be aware of one thing: Every folder is a compromise. Some compromise on the fold, some compromise on the ride, most are somewhere in between. The Brompton offers the smallest fold of all bikes than can be considered rideable (so serious bikes), still rides - depending from your taste - something beween reasonably and very well (though it typically needs a bit getting used to it's agility and nippiness) and it has a history of 40 years of maturing. The latter is the real asset. Many other folders are way earlier on the maturity scale while on the Brompton every tiny thing has been well thought through and has it's reason. Plus you don't just buy a bike, you buy into an ecosystem that has evolved over the years with the luggage being the most obvious part of it. There is simply no other folder that would even be close to that level. Including a very good situation regarding spare parts (though Brompton has lost a bit here recently). Folders have by nature some or many special parts and being able to get hold of them quickly is essential, an asset and unfortunately not a given with all brands. Even better if you do only rarely need those special parts due to the quality of the bike.

The other thing regarding compromise is: A folder is due it's folding mechanism heavier, flexier and more expensive than a comparable "normal" bike and in many cases less adaptable (and typically a bit slower as well). The Sutra is a decent bike so you should be aware that in terms of ride you probably won't make an upgrade but you possibly will in other areas.

I do not know why you opted for those three models as your favorites but coming from experience I would heavily recommend test rides as those bikes are really different. With the Brompton I would even more recommend also riding the different drivetrain and stem options as they make a massive difference. And if you can: touch as many other folders as possible - depending from your needs the perfect bike for you may be a less popular, less well known or more niche one like i.e. an Airnimal or a Bike Friday.

 

[Pale Rider]

One rider's horrid flexy frame is another rider's nicely compliant one.

The Brompton frame is essentially a bent scaffold pole.

It ought to ride like a sack of shite, but it rides a treat.

The availability of folder and brand specific bits is a consideration.

Brompton probably wins here, although Moulton are well established so I'd like to think their spares operation is the same.

Tern is definitely a risk, they are in and out of the UK market like a fiddler's elbow.

Currently in, but I think the family legal action with the Dahon side continues, so I wouldn't be surprised if Tern disappear from view again.

 

[berlinonaut]

One rider's horrid flexy frame is another rider's nicely compliant one.
The Brompton frame is essentially a bent scaffold pole.
It ought to ride like a sack of shite, but it rides a treat.

That's absolutely true.

The availability of folder and brand specific bits is a consideration.
Brompton probably wins here, although Moulton are well established so I'd like to think their spares operation is the same.

I thinks Brompton's way ahead of Moulton in that respect. This also heavily depends from where you are living. Here in Berlin I have around 10 Brompton dealers (a couple of years back there were way less) and (in theory) two or three Moulton dealers. In practice if you want anything Moulton in Germany you better go directly to the importer or - if you do not want so spent ludicriouos amounts of extra money - import directly from dealers in the UK. Local dealers may be able to organize parts but they have a total lack of experience and thus competence and the prices are useless and you will end up with the wrong parts anyway. With the Brompton the situation is way better and the German importer is more than dedicated, customer oriented and competent, still I do from experience not have much trust in the competence of most dealers and thus in many cases I am batch-importing parts that I need from the uk or other European countries (either when traveling there or by mail). No problem as I do all the maintenance myself apart from specialist jobs, own a couple of Bromptons (so there's always a project in need of parts but typically no hurry involved) and know where to source parts internationally.

Any competence in terms of Tern, Dahon, Bike Friday, Airnimal or other brands is completely absent here (though Terns do and Dahons did get sold a lot). This is the situation in the German capital, probably the most folder-occupied city within Germany - if you are living elsewhere, let alone in the countryside your are probably on your own. If you ride an older model apart from Brompton there's not too much hope that you will be able to get hold of specific parts for that model (but in the case of Bike Friday definitively and in the case of Moulton maybe directly from the factory). With Brompton any dealer can order the parts (though Brompton thin out their spare pars for older models more and more during their growth strategy - but at least modern parts are typically compatible with older bikes which normally is not the case).