Please sign the bus lane petition

[LLB]

That stated emissions figure for PTWs is 3% off my car. That's appalling.

Emissions have nothing to do with congestion which is what the bus lanes were put in for, and a car in a traffic jam is going to emit far higher levels mile for mile than a motorcycle which stays moving.

You have already indicated that you commute by car (single occupant), so your journeys are fairly inefficient considering you live in such a densely populated city when compared to motorcycle commuting.

 

[CotterPin]

I have signed this and welcome the fact that LCC seem to be campaigning vigorously on this right now.

I don't want to see PTWs (that's Powered Two Wheelers, bonj) in bus lanes because I do not believe this measure will make my life (and the life of other cyclists) safer. Too many people jump onto scooters and motorbikes in London in the same way that they seem to jump onto bicycles - with limited training and certainly with no great road sense as they adjust to their new form of transport. With cycles it ain't a problem (except for maybe the cyclist). With the operator of a PTW, as in the operation of any potential lethal machinery, if you screw up, you could screw up big time.

Spinners posted something about the differential speed between motorbikes and cycles. This I think is crucial. On an open road (or bus lane) a motorbike can get up to a silly speed quite quickly. The likes of Linford, who sounds like an experienced motorcyclist, would moderate their speed. Unfortunately in my experience on the streets of London he would be in the minority.

I use bus lanes as a cyclist and tend to take the middle of the lane as much as possible. Occasionally I have to move to the left or right to avoid an obstacle - a man hole cover or a pothole. I try to keep an eye out in plenty of time and look over my shoulder before moving but that is not always possible. Certainly for other cyclists less experienced than me it may be an issue for them if a motorbike comes up at speed behind them as they maneovre around an obstacle.

Oh - and to respond to your charge of "nimbyism", Linford (which I have to say comes a little rich from someone who posts here his special pleadings for 4x4s and motorbikes), motorcylists' safety does need to be considered but on balance I think that allowing motor cycles into bus lanes will have a greater detrimental effect on the safety on another group of roadusers, cyclists. So in my opinion it is not so much nimbyism as a simple act of utilitarianism. Allowing motorbikes into bus lanes may make it safer for the motorbikes but will it make it less safe for cyclists? In my view, yes it would, so on balance motorbikes should not be allowed in bus lanes.

 

[LLB]

I rode on a CBT thingy, but wasn't interested in taking it any further.

How is the risk to other, more vulnerable road users, less when a bike is filtering down a bus lane than when it is in amongst cars? You still haven't explained.


I covered that misunderstanding that you have a while ago linf. Do you still not get it? You need to remove the KSI'd bikers where no-one else is involved. It's a fair sized group. Or do you not know any bikers who have died after losing control when no-one else was involved? I do, and I'm not in the bike scene.

You're talking about two different things to try to win the same argument. Biker vulnerability as opposed to risk to others from bikers.

So you took the compulsory basic training for a couple of hours which covers the machine's controls, but done none of the roadcraft and this means you are now an expert

 

[4F]

Um, it's in the posted evidence......

you say evidence, I say a load of fuss about nothing

 

[LLB]

...and still unable to explain himself...

How is a motorbike, filtering down a bus lane with a bigger speed differential, less of a risk to vulnerable road users than when it's in the traffic to the right?

I've been busy sorting my animals out you impatient moderator you.

Riding in the bus lane is less of a risk because the visiblity is better than when filtering in lines of traffic which means that they will be able to respond in better time when a ped steps into the road than when they cut though lines of stationary cars into a m/cycles path, and also it avoids the need for the m/cyclist to filter up the outside of the lane into the path of oncoming vehicles which in turn lowers the risk to them and the oncoming vehicles.

Regardless of what is said or done, Red Ken is out , Boris is in and so he will do what he sees fit

 

[tdr1nka]

OK Linf lets spell the question out again.
You are only answering from the point of view of the motorcyclist, of which I was one for many years.

How is a motorbike using a bus lane, wait for it, less of a risk to vulnerable road users, eg; bicycles?

Blah blah, Ken, blah blah Boris.

 

[LLB]

OK Linf lets spell the question out again.
You are only answering from the point of view of the motorcyclist, of which I was one for many years.

How is a motorbike using a bus lane, wait for it, less of a risk to vulnerable road users, eg; bicycles?

Blah blah, Ken, blah blah Boris.

Well obviously it isn't, Any increase in traffic in those lanes adds risk to cyclists but Boris is looking at the whole picture of transport in the capital, and not just that of those who ride cycles in them.

From a cycling only point of view, buses and taxis shouldn't be using them either, but the risks are mitigated by the lanes being designated for them in the first place. Hopefully the risks will be lowered further by Boris doing away with the disasterous and dangerous fiasco which the bendy buses have become.

 

[tdr1nka]

Well obviously it isn't, Any increase in traffic in those lanes adds risk to cyclists but Boris is looking at the whole picture of transport in the capital, and not just that of those who ride cycles in them.

Forgive me if I seem somewhat misguided, but I thought we are talking about risks to cyclists in this instance, what with this being quite coincidentily, a cycling forum.

From a cycling only point of view, buses and taxis shouldn't be using them either, but the risks are mitigated by the lanes being designated for them in the first place. Hopefully the risks will be lowered further by Boris doing away with the disasterous and dangerous fiasco which the bendy buses have become.

No from a cycling point of view we already share the lanes with buses and taxis and that's already the accepted status quo. The problem might arise from adding more traffic to these lanes.

From this cyclists point of view if it wasn't for the sheer volume of unsuitable, uncourtious and uneccesary traffic on the London roads we might be able to dispense with the need for bus lanes altogether.

 

[simon l& and a half]

the astonishing thing about this is that LLB has
a) never clapped eyes on a bendy bus (I've passed them thousands of times and never thought them a risk)
never cycled in London
c) couldn't tell you, without looking it up, what colour a bus lane is

 

[LLB]

Forgive me if I seem somewhat misguided, but I thought we are talking about risks to cyclists in this instance, what with this being quite coincidentily, a cycling forum.



No from a cycling point of view we already share the lanes with buses and taxis and that's already the accepted status quo. The problem might arise from adding more traffic to these lanes.

From this cyclists point of view if it wasn't for the sheer volume of unsuitable, uncourtious and uneccesary traffic on the London roads we might be able to dispense with the need for bus lanes altogether.

MrP asked for input on this subject from a motorcyclists point of view so I gave it. If the opinions were all the same, You wouldn't have a debate at all. If you were still riding your motorcycle like myself and a few others who also ride, you would share the same opinion. As it is you aren't, so your opinion is biased towards cycles and the motorcycling side in your past doesn't IMO have much relevance as you aren't now facing the obstacles as a motorcyclist.

Are you saying that you have never been squeezed out on your cycle by buses and taxis because whilst the buses are not to bad, taxis and private hire are the worst for this around this way, and I've been squeezed out and cut up by both more times than I care to remember

 

[LLB]

the astonishing thing about this is that LLB has
a) never clapped eyes on a bendy bus (I've passed them thousands of times and never thought them a risk)
never cycled in London
c) couldn't tell you, without looking it up, what colour a bus lane is

a)Articulated buses in London have a poor safety record, being involved in 75% more accidents and three times as many collisions with cyclists as conventional buses. Transport for London say that articulated buses had a worse safety record because they "encountered more road users" than other buses (wiki)
no you are right, but I've motorcycled in London on many occasions which is relevant to this debate - as this is the point being argued
c) they are the same colour as the rest of the road up this way, but are red in other areas.

 

[BentMikey]

+1 Simon.

LLB is more of an idiot than Bonj, IMO. He's even on my ignore list more of the time.

 

[LLB]

Please remind me where I said this-

The CBT is basic machine control, It only vaguely covers roadcraft. You stated that you rode on a CBT for a couple of years but didn't take it any further

...and this...

You also said you used the Daihatsu for work when on duty, you are hardly going to take your missus or kids with you to work are you !

.

 

[LLB]

I said that I didn't take it any further, meaning testing. I rode on L-plates for a couple of years. You're making assumptions to suit yourself.

I know what the CBT is. I've taken it, remember. Why are you still trying to maintain that I have no experience when I've been very clear that I have?

And you can also show me where I said that I commute by car, on my own.

Your argument is still made up of diversion, distraction and intentional or ignorant misinterpretation.

Surely if you had a strong argument you'd just stick with that and answer the legitimate questions put to you?

Hmmmm...

I drew that conclusion from previous postings.

Riding on L plates is no substitute for proper training especially when doing so unsupervised like in a car.
I avoid learner riders like the plague. They are the ones along with car driving born agains who give motorcycling a bad rep and are responsible for most of the accident stats

 

[Origamist]

I know asking people to read a TFL report is akin to offering someone a pint of vomit to down, but...

in a (slightly rotten) nutshell, they found a very small benefit for motorcyclists against a larger disbenefit for other vulnerable road users (ie peds and cyclists). However, the "Tanner Test" itself is flawed and not entirely convincing.

What is truly shocking is that the methodology and data gathering in the trial test was considered robust in the first place.

Unfortunately, these reports (and the differing analyses employed) became a mayoral election football and it's difficult to see what's what.