Please sign the bus lane petition

Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.

LLB

Guest
Irrelevant. And the kind of generalisation that you feign offence about. Like you crying when I point out that KIS stats for motorcyclists include those who lose control when there is no other vehicle involved.

Irrelevant because again you're making assumptions about my riding. But crucially irrelevant because you don't need any riding experience to appreciate the vulnerability of PTW riders. Especially as a cyclist.

And laughable because you, a self-claiming experienced motorcyclist, can't explain how motorcyclists in bus lanes are less of a risk to those around them than motorcyclists in the slow-moving traffic alongside the bus lane.

And you, as a self-claiming experienced motorcyclist, don't know any bikers who have been killed after losing control when there was no-one else involved.

I am not feigning offence at your assertion of the KSI stats, but I am offended that you tar all motorcylists with the same brush. This says more about you than the motorcyclists which you appear to regard with such disdain :biggrin:
I'd hope you treat them with a bit more respect when you pass them in your cars
 

LLB

Guest
Show me where I have tarred all motorcyclists with the same brush, and I'll donate £50 to your charity page.

Otherwise, be quiet.

http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=281314&postcount=51
 

tdr1nka

Taking the biscuit
linfordlunchbox said:
Are you saying that you have never been squeezed out on your cycle by buses and taxis because whilst the buses are not to bad, taxis and private hire are the worst for this around this way, and I've been squeezed out and cut up by both more times than I care to remember ;)


This happens, yes but this is expected behavior and part and parcel of the roads as they stand and for the most part, can for the most part be anticipated and avoided.
The problems arise IMO if you add another faster less predictable vehicle into the equation.

I may well be only riding a bicycle these days but all my riding experience came from motorbikes, primary position, riding defencivly, looking behind, hand signals, wearing the right clobber, spotting a potential left/right hook from 200yds, etc. I feel my past experience has everything to do with the way I ride today.

I was a motorcycle courier in London and I know the frustrations of the rider, and they are all pretty much the same as that of cyclists.
 

LLB

Guest
There's nothing there that tars all motorcyclists with the same brush.

Show me where I do, and I'll donate £50.

If you can't, you can choose how much you donate.

Your statement in that post demonstrates intent. Anyone with an unbiased view can see what you are implying.
 

domtyler

Über Member
linfordlunchbox said:
Your statement in that post demonstrates intent. Anyone with an unbiased view can see what you are implying.

I don't think so linf, I can't see where he is tarring all bikers with the same brush at all I'm afraid. Can I suggest a hundred quid to the charity page?


LLB does make a very valid point though that bikers become far more visible in the bus lane than they were when filtering between queues of stationary traffic.

I would also like to add that in many cases my own speed equals or exceeds that of bikers when I am cycling because bikers are still incredibly vulnerable in this situation. From cars turning across the bus lane, pedestrians stepping out, gaps that they can't fit through while I can and so on. I generally only see bikers really pull away very quickly when the road really opens up and they have a clear view, obviously then I am left breathing their dust.
 

LLB

Guest
domtyler said:
I don't think so linf, I can't see where he is tarring all bikers with the same brush at all I'm afraid. Can I suggest a hundred quid to the charity page?


LLB does make a very valid point though that bikers become far more visible in the bus lane than they were when filtering between queues of stationary traffic.

I would also like to add that in many cases my own speed equals or exceeds that of bikers when I am cycling because bikers are still incredibly vulnerable in this situation. From cars turning across the bus lane, pedestrians stepping out, gaps that they can't fit through while I can and so on. I generally only see bikers really pull away very quickly when the road really opens up and they have a clear view, obviously then I am left breathing their dust.

Suggest away by all means, but my charitable donation fund is all used up for the time being ;)

I'll tell you what, Spindrift can put his £20 into the Macmillan Cancer care Charity on my behalf and then we can call it a day :evil:
 

tdr1nka

Taking the biscuit
No linf, the fools tax is for those who spend more time on a cycling forum talking about their bloody cars than their bikes. FYI.;)
 

LLB

Guest
tdr1nka said:
No linf, the fools tax is for those who spend more time on a cycling forum talking about their bloody cars than their bikes. FYI.:blush:

I always thought the whole point of a cycling forum was to moan about cars ;)
 
linfordlunchbox said:
a)Articulated buses in London have a poor safety record, being involved in 75% more accidents and three times as many collisions with cyclists as conventional buses. Transport for London say that articulated buses had a worse safety record because they "encountered more road users" than other buses (wiki)
:smile: no you are right, but I've motorcycled in London on many occasions which is relevant to this debate - as this is the point being argued :tongue:
c) they are the same colour as the rest of the road up this way, but are red in other areas.


The bendybus argument is foolish, but you hear it so many times that it bears rebutting. Accidents between buses of any kind and cyclists are very rare. I do recall that there have been two fatalities in recent years - a young woman was killed on Blackfriars Bridge, and a young Polish man was killed in Clapham Junction. Neither collision was with a bendybus. There are a number of low-level side to side collisions between bendybuses and cars. The point is this - TfL, with the help of the LCC, have made it their business to educate bus drivers, and the results are available on any street at any time. Bendybus drivers, in my experience, deploy a level of consideration and foresight that would, in times gone by, lead to beatification. Watching three doors, and about six mirrors while sitting in a chair surrounded by people can't be a recipe for contentment.

Were the same degree of care exercised by drivers of construction lorries we'd lead happier, safer lives, and four cyclists would not have died this year. It bears repeating that the HSE, a body that concerns itself with the most trivial risk in the construction industry has no interest whatsoever in construction traffic, nor the design decisions that generate the traffic.

So the point about bendybuses is instructive in that Johnson siezed upon their newness and their famed ability to delay car traffic, and made it into a cycling issue. Equally he suggested that lives would be saved if cyclists were allowed to turn left against a red light, as women were, apparently, more at risk from crushing by lorries. Sadly it is the lorries that are turning left, not the cyclists, and three times this year cyclists have died in London where they have been going straight on, and the lorry has been turning left.

All this betokens a degree of opportunism allied to complete ignorance - but bear in mind that this is a man who cycles head down through red lights, so a degree of ignorance is clearly the route to bliss.

People like LLB would have us behave 'fairly'. The internet is the last resting place of 'fairness' which is usually a name we give to our own prejudices. I'm suggesting that fairness has nothing to do with it. What matters is the result. Motorcyclists are not a priority in London - their vehicles are not sustainable, they generate a huge number of hospital admissions relative to their own numbers, and they're declining in number. Cyclists are more important - their vehicles are sustainable, and they are increasing in number. Equally, there are places or routes where cyclists have to consider that others have priority - I excited a lot of outrage when I suggested that cyclists should obey the speed limit in Richmond Park on the grounds that Richmond Park was......a park. Cyclists shouldn't take their access to canal towpaths for granted - I'd turf them off the Regents Canal, and have said as much to the BWB, because they're a nuisance to the walkers, particularly under bridges, many of whom are elderly.

People like LLB argue ex nihilo because they enjoy arguing, and they're unwilling to consider the consequences of decisions. 'Fairness' is their calling card. Keeping PTWs out of bus lanes might be fair or it might not be fair. I don't care either way. His alleged riding of motorcycles in London is neither here nor there. I've no interest in the experience of motorcyclists in bus lanes - it's the cyclists' experience that matters.
 

LLB

Guest
simon l& and a half said:
The bendybus argument is foolish, but you hear it so many times that it bears rebutting. Accidents between buses of any kind and cyclists are very rare. I do recall that there have been two fatalities in recent years - a young woman was killed on Blackfriars Bridge, and a young Polish man was killed in Clapham Junction. Neither collision was with a bendybus. There are a number of low-level side to side collisions between bendybuses and cars. The point is this - TfL, with the help of the LCC, have made it their business to educate bus drivers, and the results are available on any street at any time. Bendybus drivers, in my experience, deploy a level of consideration and foresight that would, in times gone by, lead to beatification. Watching three doors, and about six mirrors while sitting in a chair surrounded by people can't be a recipe for contentment.

Were the same degree of care exercised by drivers of construction lorries we'd lead happier, safer lives, and four cyclists would not have died this year. It bears repeating that the HSE, a body that concerns itself with the most trivial risk in the construction industry has no interest whatsoever in construction traffic, nor the design decisions that generate the traffic.

So the point about bendybuses is instructive in that Johnson siezed upon their newness and their famed ability to delay car traffic, and made it into a cycling issue. Equally he suggested that lives would be saved if cyclists were allowed to turn left against a red light, as women were, apparently, more at risk from crushing by lorries. Sadly it is the lorries that are turning left, not the cyclists, and three times this year cyclists have died in London where they have been going straight on, and the lorry has been turning left.

All this betokens a degree of opportunism allied to complete ignorance - but bear in mind that this is a man who cycles head down through red lights, so a degree of ignorance is clearly the route to bliss.

People like LLB would have us behave 'fairly'. The internet is the last resting place of 'fairness' which is usually a name we give to our own prejudices. I'm suggesting that fairness has nothing to do with it. What matters is the result. Motorcyclists are not a priority in London - their vehicles are not sustainable, they generate a huge number of hospital admissions relative to their own numbers, and they're declining in number. Cyclists are more important - their vehicles are sustainable, and they are increasing in number. Equally, there are places or routes where cyclists have to consider that others have priority - I excited a lot of outrage when I suggested that cyclists should obey the speed limit in Richmond Park on the grounds that Richmond Park was......a park. Cyclists shouldn't take their access to canal towpaths for granted - I'd turf them off the Regents Canal, and have said as much to the BWB, because they're a nuisance to the walkers, particularly under bridges, many of whom are elderly.

People like LLB argue ex nihilo because they enjoy arguing, and they're unwilling to consider the consequences of decisions. 'Fairness' is their calling card. Keeping PTWs out of bus lanes might be fair or it might not be fair. I don't care either way. His alleged riding of motorcycles in London is neither here nor there. I've no interest in the experience of motorcyclists in bus lanes - it's the cyclists' experience that matters.

Which would have saved hours of blathering and blustering had you say this in the first place :wacko:
 

jonesy

Guru
linfordlunchbox said:
a)Articulated buses in London have a poor safety record, being involved in 75% more accidents and three times as many collisions with cyclists as conventional buses. Transport for London say that articulated buses had a worse safety record because they "encountered more road users" than other buses ..

which happens to be true as they are used on the busiest routes. Exposure matters when comparing risk.
 

bonj2

Guest
simon l& and a half said:
Motorcyclists are not a priority in London - their vehicles are not sustainable, they generate a huge number of hospital admissions relative to their own numbers, and they're declining in number. Cyclists are more important - their vehicles are sustainable, and they are increasing in number. Equally, there are places or routes where cyclists have to consider that others have priority - I excited a lot of outrage when I suggested that cyclists should obey the speed limit in Richmond Park on the grounds that Richmond Park was......a park. Cyclists shouldn't take their access to canal towpaths for granted - I'd turf them off the Regents Canal, and have said as much to the BWB, because they're a nuisance to the walkers, particularly under bridges, many of whom are elderly.
Why should sustainability bring about greater priority?
 
Top Bottom