Should horses be allowed on the road?

Sould horses be allowed on the road


  • Total voters
    1
Page may contain affiliate links. Please see terms for details.

Arch

Married to Night Train
Location
Salford, UK
davidtq;169622][quote=Arch;169618][quote=davidtq said:
I've never anazlysed them at a scientific level Ive not run comparisons to analyse the difference content of different animals feces.

I dont doubt theres many people who have :girl: im sure the archaelogical stuff was generally quite low in moisture content?


Depends what sort of deposit it's in. The famous (in York archaeological circles) Lloyds Bank Turd from York was quite pliable I understand (named after the site on whichn it was found. And it was human...)

For the most part, it's been incorporated into the soil, and it's detection would be through the analysis of soil chemistry, micro and macro plant fossils and insect remains. There, my dissertation in one sentence![/quote]
 

davidtq

New Member
Arch;169678][quote=davidtq;169622][quote=Arch said:
Depends what sort of deposit it's in. The famous (in York archaeological circles) Lloyds Bank Turd from York was quite pliable I understand (named after the site on whichn it was found. And it was human...)

For the most part, it's been incorporated into the soil, and it's detection would be through the analysis of soil chemistry, micro and macro plant fossils and insect remains. There, my dissertation in one sentence!

So how far back can you track a turd? how long before the stuff you are looking for becomes to "dilluted" or spread around to track? can you track individual stools or just general droppings areas?[/quote]
 

Maz

Guru
I have numerous turds in a cupboard which have become family heirlooms. I believe one even dates back to 1903.
Why not get Dyno-rod out to unblock your karzy? :biggrin:
 

bonj2

Guest
linfordlunchbox said:
When I say ' Originally Posted by linfordlunchbox View Post
Horses are allowed on the road because they are under the control of the riders.'

It is as opposed to them being left to roam the streets unattended.

If I were to see a horse rearing and the rider struggling to control it, or a parent wrestling with a small child on a cycle path, or a dog on a lead attempting to drag its owner across the road to see another dog, then as a bystander, It would be the sensible thing to wait and give them a chance to resolve the issue, not to barge through arrogantly.

I'd hope you offer more consideration whilst in your van !
Obviously. As would I. You don't do that, I don't do that, so that's not the issue then is it. So i've no idea what your comment about 'i hope you offer more consideration whilst in your van' is all about, more than what? The mental image that you've conjured up in your head of me roaring past with only a foot to spare and falsely ascribed to me? Argue against the argument that's being put, not a piece of imaginary conjecture which as it happens couldn't be further from the truth.

What I'm finding issue with , is horse riders who take offence at cyclists or drivers simply for being there
- by scorning at them, either verbally, or simply a frown of ungratefulness when over and above due consideration and respect has been afforded. If you don't do this, good. But you can't pretend it doesn't happen. Therefore you can't condemn my justification for my dislike of horses and horse riders either by, probably correctly, asserting that you yourself are a very considerate horse rider, or by falsely pretending that I am inconsiderate around horses.
I DO behave VERY considerately around horse riders, it's just a lot of them are very ungrateful.
 
davidtq said:
Look back in urban history to that rose tinted time when horses ruled the road and you will find that one of the biggest complaints was the horsedroppings.

This isn't true. Horse droppings were highly prized by street urchins, to the extent that they'd follow a horse down the street in order to collect its manure to sell.
Slightly OT, but there used to be a barrel on every street corner in London. Residents were expected to contribute a bucket of their own urine every day, on pain of quite a large fine if they failed to do so. The urine was then shipped up to the Cleveland coast to be used in the manufacture of alum, used as a fixative in dyes for clothing.
Personally, it would be rather hypocritical of me to be bothered by horse poo all over the road, given that my 20 year old Volvo estate and the articulated lorry I drive every day pump out lots of far more offensive (yet somehow more socially acceptable) pollutants. It's biodegradable and it washes away.
 
OP
OP
G

gambatte

Middle of the pack...
Location
S Yorks
Rhythm Thief said:
This isn't true. Horse droppings were highly prized by street urchins, to the extent that they'd follow a horse down the street in order to collect its manure to sell.
Slightly OT, but there used to be a barrel on every street corner in London. Residents were expected to contribute a bucket of their own urine every day, on pain of quite a large fine if they failed to do so. The urine was then shipped up to the Cleveland coast to be used in the manufacture of alum, used as a fixative in dyes for clothing.
Personally, it would be rather hypocritical of me to be bothered by horse poo all over the road, given that my 20 year old Volvo estate and the articulated lorry I drive every day pump out lots of far more offensive (yet somehow more socially acceptable) pollutants. It's biodegradable and it washes away.

True, my grandparents used to own a garage next door to their house. They employed one guy (Mr Evans) partly at the garage and partly as a gardner/odd job man. If a horse 'dropped its load' outside the garage he'd get someone to stand guard, protectively, over it, whilst he went for a shovel and bucket.
 
The real issue isn't with the mode of transport, it's the level of responsibility and adherance to the law shown by the driver/rider that counts. What this poll is really saying is "Should responsible horse riders be allowed on the roads?" to which the answer is yes.

Being surrounded by Derbyshire countryside, we meet lots of horses on the country lanes. We've been greeted politely and thanked almost every time for showing consideration by slowing down on our bikes - even stopping for riders under instruction. If car drivers find horses a problem, they should examine their own driving habits.
 

LLB

Guest
I've never seen a horse spooked on the road, nor has one ever had an adverse reaction to me passing in the car or on the bike.

Do you have any unusually frightening facial features Simon?

Bad Hair Day :biggrin:

one-really-ugly-man-6f8.jpg
 

Dave5N

Über Member
I've never seen a horse spooked on the road, nor has one ever had an adverse reaction to me passing in the car or on the bike.

Do you have any unusually frightening facial features Simon?

Well that's a bit odd Mr P. Nor have I. In fact I was beginning to feel a bit left out here, as I don't find horses any bother at all (apart from the bourgeois reactionary opressor come-the-revolution etc stuff).

Maybe West Midlands horses are a cut above?
 

davidtq

New Member
This is the ERA of horse transport I remember learning about in history :- The horse at its peak in victorian times. Considered a evil necesity.

I still dont like crap on the roads and think if you do take your house for a walk theres measures you can take to keep things a little nicer for the rest of the population. Not to do so is selfish and unthoughtfull. As much as you may like sh!t all over the roads I think getting rid of it from the streets was one of the better ideas society has had. Horse polution was as big an issue in its prime as car polution is today.

Gambatte what decade were your grandparents talking about if they owned a garage the chances are that the days of horse drawn transport being defacto were long over...

Horse excrement might be biodegradeable, so are burgerking wrappings, I dont appreciate either being left in the streets by people who are too selfish and lazy to do anything better about it. Same mentality to littering, personally Id rather ride around burger king wrappers than horse droppings. Both are the passing tokens of the inconsiderate in my opinion.

http://www.amrep.org/articles/3_1a/civility.html

STENCH Public and private spaces alike stank during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries. On the streets of central London, drains were often blocked by garbage and horse droppings. Rubbish cascaded out of windows onto the heads of unlucky pedestrians below. Domestic fires polluted the air and blackened the sky with a noxious smog. As Patrick Süskind writes at the beginning of his novel, Perfume, "In [the eighteenth century] there reigned in the cities a stench barely conceivable to us modern men and women. The streets stank of manure, the courtyards of urine

In 1898, delegates from across the globe gathered in New York

City for the world's first international urban planning conference. One topic

dominated the discussion. It was not housing, land use, economic development, or

infrastructure. The delegates were driven to desperation by horse

manure.


The horse was no newcomer on the urban scene. But by the late

1800s, the problem of horse pollution had reached unprecedented heights. The

growth in the horse population was outstripping even the rapid rise in the

number of human city dwellers. American cities were drowning in horse manure and

well as other unpleasant biproducts of the era's predominant mode of

transportation: urine, flies, congestion, carcasses, and traffic accidents.

Widespread cruelty to horses was a form of environmental degradation as well.


The situation seemed dire. In 1894, the Times of

London estimated that by 1950 every street in the city would be buried nine feet

deep in horse manure. One New York prognosticator of the 1890s concluded

that by 1930 the horse droppings would rise to Manhattan's third-story

windows. A public health and sanitation crisis of almost unimaginable

dimensions loomed.


And no possible solution could be devised. After all,

the horse had been the dominant mode of transportation for thousands of

years. Horses were absolutely essential for the functioning of the 19th

century city - for personal transportation, freight haulage and even mechanical

power. Without horses, cities would quite literally starve.


All efforts to mitigate the problem were proving woefully

inadequate. Stumped by the crisis, the urban planning conference declared

its work fruitless and broke up in three days instead of the scheduled

ten.





It is easy to imagine that a hundred years ago, when cars were first appearing on our roads, they replaced previously peaceful, gentle and safe forms of travel. In fact, motor vehicles were welcomed as the answer to a desperate state of affairs. In 1900 it was calculated that in England and Wales there were around 100,000 horse drawn public passenger vehicles, half a million trade vehicles and about half a million private carriages. Towns in England had to cope with over 100 million tons of horse droppings a year (much of it was dumped at night in the slums) and countless gallons of urine. Men wore spats and women favoured outdoor ankle-length coats not out of a sense of fashion but because of the splash of liquified manure; and it was so noisy that straw had to be put down outside hospitals to muffle the clatter of horses’ hooves. Worst of all, with horses and carriages locked in immovable traffic jams, transport was grinding to a halt in London and other cities.

Moreover, horse-drawn transport was not safe. Road traffic deaths from horse-drawn vehicles in England and Wales between 1901 and 1905 were about 2,500 a year. This works out as about 70 road traffic deaths per million population per year which is close to the annual rate of 80 to 100 deaths per million for road traffic accidents in the 1980s and 1990s, although we must not forget that many people who died from injuries sustained in road accidents in 1900 would probably have survived today thanks to our A&E departments. Motor vehicles were welcomed because they were faster, safer, unlikely to swerve or bolt, better able brake in an emergency, and took up less room: a single large lorry could pull a load that would take several teams of horses and wagons – and do so without producing any dung. By World War One industry had become dependent on lorries, traffic cruised freely down Oxford Street and Piccadilly, specialists parked their expensive cars ouside their houses in Harley and Wimpole Street, and the lives of general practitioners were transformed. By using even the cheapest of cars doctors no longer had to wake the stable lad and harness the horse to attend a night call. Instead it was ‘one pull of the handle and they were off’. Further, general practitioners could visit nearly twice as many patients in a day than they could in the days of the horse and trap. (1) 1. Loudon I ‘Doctors and their transport 1750-1914’, Medical History: 2001; 45185-206 Irvine Loudon, Medical Historian


 

Arch

Married to Night Train
Location
Salford, UK
davidtq;169706][quote=Arch;169678][quote=davidtq said:
So how far back can you track a turd? how long before the stuff you are looking for becomes to "dilluted" or spread around to track? can you track individual stools or just general droppings areas?

Well, the Lloyds Bank example came from the Anglo-Scandinavian (Viking) period if I recall correctly - over a 1000 years ago. It depends so much on the surrounding conditions. Most of York is waterlogged, which provides excellent preservation of organic material. In dry conditions, turds (or coprolites as we more properly call them) can also be preserved, by dehydration and a degree of mineralisation - I believe that can go back a very long way. But it also depends on the poo. A well formed turd with a fairly solid texture will be more likely to survive intact than anything sloppy - so the species makes a difference. And as poo has been used since farming began as a manure, and spread over fields, in that case it is unlikely that you'll find individual turds, more like a general chenical or microscopic signature. Within a settlement, a high phosphate or nitrate level in a distinct area, for example, might indicate a latrine, or an area where manure was stored prior to spreading, or a stable or byre. Whereas in the fields, there might just be a general raising of the level of certain chemicals.

BTW, in one latrine in York, they found a large quanity of apparently unused moss (medieval toilet paper). On closer inspection, it was discovered that it had been adulterated with holly leaves, which probably explains why it hadn't been used....[/quote]
 

Arch

Married to Night Train
Location
Salford, UK
davidtq said:
I still dont like crap on the roads and think if you do take your house for a walk theres measures you can take to keep things a little nicer for the rest of the population.


I think if I took my house for a walk, there'd be more for the population to think about than a bit of poo - trailing electricity cables, gas pipes, probably chunks of plaster and loose slates falling off. And as I only live in a flat, I bet my neighbours would be a bit pissed off....:thumbsup:
 
Top Bottom