Stick with tubeless?

screenman

Legendary Member
I just can't see tubeless ever becoming reliable enough to be able to trust it on high pressure road tyres, without carrying tubes and repair kit as back-up, which rather defeats the object of going tubeless. The problem seems to be that the sealant won't coagulate because there is enough air pressure behind it to force it through the hole whilst still liquid.
MTB users tend to report better results because their tyres only run at half the pressure and have two or three times more air volume, so the leak will seal faster and a small loss of pressure won't risk unseating the tyre off the rim.
The industry will push tubeless for the same reason they push 11 speed and disc brakes - because they are constantly fighting a battle to make cyclists update and replace serviceable equipment that doesn't actually need to be updated. The industry don't like cyclists like me who will buy something just the once then keep running it for years and years without replacing it with something different and putting more money in their pockets.
Bicycles are a mature technology and had already reached a level of development which gave mechanical durability and reliability decades ago, at which point many riders will just stick with what they have. Rigid steel frames don't wear out, so once the market is saturated with rim-braked rigid Road, Hybrid, and MTB's, sales are pretty much limited to maintenance parts. All the recent industry trends are aimed at displacing the low-revenue type of bikes with ones that offer a more frequent replacement/upgrade cycle, and more expensive maintenance parts pricing. Tubeless is part of this strategy.
Out of interest take away all these things and what would you do for a job?
 

lane

Über Member
One problem is some of the rim/tyre combinations are so bleeding tight I couldn't put a tube in! My new Ribble has Mavic Ksyrium Elite's with the UST rim and came with Mavic tyres which I didn't particularly want so first thing I wanted to do was put Rubino Pros on. I couldn't get the tyres off! I ended up cutting one off and nearly damaging the wheel so had to take the other to a bike shop. Never had to do that in my life. My hands were still red and blistered the next day and the bead was so tight I couldn't even get a tyre lever under it. God knows how the bike shop managed reasonably quickly. No doubt they have better levers for awkward tyres.
Yes I know someone who gave up on tubeless for the same reason. Hence I said in my first post in this thread that tyre / rim combination are important. I know I could get my tyre off and put a tube in with relative ease should I need to. But have read on other forums some people having problems with GP5000 being tight.

The cycle clinic linked to earlier on this thread says if you can get them on without levers they are probably not secure. I can with mine so not entirely sure in what way they would not be secure? do they mean blow offs - there is another thread on here re GP5000 blow offs. However I run mine at 60psi and they seem fine.

I have had tubes tyres harder to get on and off the rim.
 

Venod

Eh up
I just can't see tubeless ever becoming reliable enough to be able to trust it on high pressure road tyres, without carrying tubes and repair kit as back-up, which rather defeats the object of going tubeless.
Non of my tubeless road tyres are run with more than 50 psi, but the smallest is 32 mm, I don't know how high pressure smaller tubeless are run at but as I have said before there is more to tubeless than puncture convienience. lower pressure = more comfort, less rotating weight, more confidence for the rider. I don't see the point in running tubeless at high pressure, so if tubeless don't work at high pressures stick to tubes, vehicle tyres are tubeless, they used to have tubes, they still carry spare wheels or repair kits, its common sense, I don't see how carrying repair options defeats the object.

Rigid steel frames don't wear out,
I like a nice steel frame and have run a few, but surely you have seen example's of well rusted unusable frames, I have seen cracked and fatigued Aluminium, cracked Titanium, Carbon Fibre in 2 pieces, all have their good and bad points.
 
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Milkfloat

Veteran
Location
Midlands
One problem is some of the rim/tyre combinations are so bleeding tight I couldn't put a tube in! My new Ribble has Mavic Ksyrium Elite's with the UST rim and came with Mavic tyres which I didn't particularly want so first thing I wanted to do was put Rubino Pros on. I couldn't get the tyres off! I ended up cutting one off and nearly damaging the wheel so had to take the other to a bike shop. Never had to do that in my life. My hands were still red and blistered the next day and the bead was so tight I couldn't even get a tyre lever under it. God knows how the bike shop managed reasonably quickly. No doubt they have better levers for awkward tyres.
Did you try standing on the tyre near the bead? A workshop option can be to use a vice or pump pliers. To be honest I have never had to resort to these options, even with some incredibly tight rim/tyre combinations.
 

Dogtrousers

Kilometre nibbler
Seems to me that the arguments against are just general railing against the new. Old man yells at cloud.

On the other hand, the arguments for aren't exactly convincing to me. I don't have any problem with punctures, as I ride Durano Plus and pretty much never get punctures. (Maybe one every 5,000km or so, plus a couple of bead failures that I've discussed on here in the past). Lower pressures might be interesting to try. But as I generally can't tell the difference between one kind of tyre and another I fear that my arse may be too insensitive to notice. Also I can't run anything bigger than 28mm on my bike, because I steadfastly refuse to remove the mudguards so that may limit the benefits.

Cost wise, it seems pretty neutral. You still need to buy rims and tyres which is the major outlay. For obsessive penny pinchers the sealant might add up to a fraction of a penny per km or something like that. Offset that against reduced outlay on expensive patches and tubes of rubber solution that dry up for fixing punctured tubes and your fractional penny balance may change a bit.

I'm still curious about them, but my rims (Mavic Open Pro) aren't suitable (at least not without serious bodgery - or so I read). I'll have to wait until my rim walls start getting worn and start looking to see what I want my next wheels built with.
 

wonderloaf

Über Member
Location
Hampshire
For me the over riding benefit of tubeless is one of safety, if I pick up a puncture whilst on a descent then the tubeless setup at least hopefully gives a gradual deflation (depending on hole size) allowing a more controlled stop, especially so if the puncture is on the front tyre. I've had snakebite punctures with tubes a couple of time on downhills but luckily they were on the rear so not so serious although still unnerving! Hate to think what would have happened if they were on the front.
That said if the puncture is so large that the tubeless sealant cannot seal it then you're possibly in trouble, but then a tube set up wouldn't be any better anyway.
Setting up the tubeless tyres is a bit more hassle but now I know the pitfalls the process is much easier and think the extra time spent is worth it bearing in mind the safety aspects above.
I still carry a couple of spare tubes and a puncture repair outfit whether riding tubed or tubeless, just in case though!
 
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YukonBoy

The Monch
Location
Inside my skull
Tubes get pinched in tyres, they puncture from the smallest bits of glass, patching them is a nightmare in the rain, valves break away. You put tubes back in and they puncture from something you didn't spot. They puncture from the tiniest slit in a tyre. Hit a pothole they puncture. Puncture proof tyres are a nightmare to get on and off, often breaking tyre levers. Puncture proof tyres have a dead feeling, it's like riding on solid cardboard. Why on earth do people bother with the hassle of tubes?
 

Ajax Bay

Veteran
Location
East Devon
if I pick up a puncture whilst on a descent then the tubeless setup at least hopefully gives a gradual deflation (depending on hole size) allowing a more controlled stop, especially so if the puncture is on the front tyre. I've had snakebite punctures with tubes a couple of time on downhills but luckily they were on the rear so not so serious although still unnerving! Hate to think what would have happened if they were on the front.
My 'off' in 2017 was an instaneous puncture downhill (one chevron) at speed (slightly bending road) at 199km into a 300km audax. It did not end well: memory stops, endo, broken shoulder blade, ribs, punctured lung, unconscious for several (or more minutes), air and road ambulance discussing where and whether by road or air, intensive care - 2 days. [Riding on the turbo in a week, and completed a 200k audax 3 months later (so all good).]
My posts describing/discussing the accident are here:
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/t...challenge-chatzone.95264/page-84#post-4950192
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/t...challenge-chatzone.95264/page-85#post-4952273
Happily, my bike was almost unscathed. The inner tube had a major snakebite in it: 11mm on one side and 9mm on the other, which will have caused/allowed the near instantaneous deflation I remember. There was a significant dink in one side of the rim where the puncture was. And there was damage to the left hand rim edge for about a third of the circumference, consistent with the rim attempting to roll on the road surface before saying ‘enough’. There was damage to the tyre sidewall in this area too. Inspecting the hill a month later (when I could drive!), the surface was fine (ie no potholes or the like), the light was fine and I was concentrating, on the drops, down that hill (with half a dozen others riders coming down behind me - who were quick to call 999 - thank you).
Full analysis post: https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/big-offs.224746/post-4987009
To add: I used a Joe Blow track pump to inflate my tyres (the night before). Subsequent checking suggests that the gauge on that pump reads about 10psi high (using a reliable tyre pressure gauge to calibrate it against) so it's possible that might be how my tube had less than the required pressure in, increasing the risk of a snakebite. Or I might have lost pressure during the 199km of riding that day.
Still on tubes: still on the wheel, although I've laced a new rim on, but I do put an 'extra' 5psi in the front, and the Joe Blow pump is used for car tyre checks/top-ups.
 
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OP
Slipperdiff

Slipperdiff

Regular
Location
Reading
In the end I swapped the tubeless tyres for new Schwalbe Duranos with Conti race tubes.

I thought I might 'have a go' tubeless but the mess inside the tyres when they finally came off was not pretty and more importantly, incredibly tenacious to remove. The bike had not been used for well over a year. I spent 90 minutes scrubbing and rubbing the residue on one tyre and even then I didn't get it all off.
OK - I know some will say you don't need to get it all off - but there was so much of it in the tyre, surely it must have to get removed eventually.

The bike goes well on the new set-up but I would like to try the tubeless route, perhaps I need a spare set of TLR wheels so I can do a side-by-side.
Still have to find time to clean the gunk off the other tubeless tyre, though...
 

MrGrumpy

Huge Member
Location
Fly Fifer
No idea why you need to remove the residue from inside ?? I’m still early stages of tubeless myself and was not sold after getting two punctures that would not seal!? So have now switched to different sealant, see how we get on with that.
 
No idea why you need to remove the residue from inside ?? I’m still early stages of tubeless myself and was not sold after getting two punctures that would not seal!? So have now switched to different sealant, see how we get on with that.
Sealant is definitely a issue IME, I found the finishline sealant terrible, for the few months I used it it'd fail to seal tiny p'tures (I couldn't even see) and gradually I lose pressure then hit a small bump (like a cateye) and the whole tyre would unseat. Touch wood I've had no such problems with Stan's/Joe's.
 

MrGrumpy

Huge Member
Location
Fly Fifer
The Decathlon stuff I had was sealing nothing at all !! Found a small thorn in the tyre and it just was not sealing it. Trying stans race stuff so will see how we get on. Really want to find a good combination as the wheels roll so much better with no tubes. Lower pressure options is great as well without worrying about pinch punctures etc !
 

CXRAndy

Guru
Location
Lincs
I use either Stans sealant. of my favourite Orange. Remember to put enough in 75 mil for 25 mm tyre

Im getting some new G Ones with tan walls in 40mm. These are not tubeless ready, but im confident they will work just as well as their tubeless model. A tad more sealant to coat the inside
 

wonderloaf

Über Member
Location
Hampshire
I use either Stans sealant. of my favourite Orange. Remember to put enough in 75 mil for 25 mm tyre

Im getting some new G Ones with tan walls in 40mm. These are not tubeless ready, but im confident they will work just as well as their tubeless model. A tad more sealant to coat the inside
I've been using regular tan wall 40mm folding G Ones on regular Aksium rims for over a 1000 miles now, had a few small punctures that sealed themselves. Initially I used Decathlon sealant which sealed a couple of glass punctures but was slow to work but did it's job eventually. I'm now using Orange Seal Endurance, 2oz in each tyre. Recently had puncture I didn't even know about until I was inspecting the tyre at home, so guess it's working!
 
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