Taking off the door mirror...

[fimm]

You make some good points, but

... I find it dispiriting that it's actually being encouraged, even lauded...

I am not convinced that this is happening. Others are saying that they have taken wing mirrors off, or could see themselves doing so. I don't think that's "lauding" the practice.

Here everybody, have a really big can of worms. Some male gropes me on a crowded Tube (note: thankfully I personally have never been in this or a similar situation). I slap him hard across the face. Acceptable?
(I'm not sure how helpful the analogy is. There are some similarities but I'm also aware I could be about to derail what has been a mostly interesting thread. It has been in my head for a while as I've been following the thread, though, so I'm plucking up my courage and throwing it into the mix...)

 

[Dan B]

Here everybody, have a really big can of worms. Some male gropes me on a crowded Tube (note: thankfully I personally have never been in this or a similar situation). I slap him hard across the face. Acceptable?

I'm not sure how helpful the analogy is either, but it did spur me to realisation that there are two distinct arguments anti- the practice of door mirror pruning: some are saying "it's criminal damage, two wrongs don't make a right" and others are saying "it's dangerous, what if you provoke him". I'm not convinced that either of them are good arguments but they need addressing separately

To answer the question as posed, though: entirely acceptable, assuming there's enough room around you that you can get a good swing. You don;t want to elbow some other poor passenger in the process

 

[Dan B]

True, but the second subdivision of that group probably hated cyclists forever anyway

 

[GrumpyGregry]

You make some good points, but

I am not convinced that this is happening. Others are saying that they have taken wing mirrors off, or could see themselves doing so. I don't think that's "lauding" the practice.

Here everybody, have a really big can of worms. Some male gropes me on a crowded Tube (note: thankfully I personally have never been in this or a similar situation). I slap him hard across the face. Acceptable?
(I'm not sure how helpful the analogy is. There are some similarities but I'm also aware I could be about to derail what has been a mostly interesting thread. It has been in my head for a while as I've been following the thread, though, so I'm plucking up my courage and throwing it into the mix...)

Grope him back, your hand on his crotch and then squeeze and twist. Much more effective than a slap which can be hard to deliver in confined spaces.

 

[fimm]

I was more thinking of the "is a physical response appropriate, or should the hypothetical victim say nothing and report the incident to the police?" question...
(Useful tip though, thank you... I think...)

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Two wrongs don't make a right; I agree. could someone tell me what would make a right in the presence of the single wrong?

What if you provoke them; I'll take my chances. I was brought up, for better or worse, on a mantra of "never back down to bullies." on or off the rugby pitch. cos if you do they always win.

What if they hate all cyclists as a result; I'll take my chances. They certainly demonstrate a high degree of carelessness around them at the moment, a high enough degree that it looks and feels like hatred.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I was more thinking of the "is a physical response appropriate, or should the hypothetical victim say nothing and report the incident to the police?" question...
(Useful tip though, thank you... I think...)

Is a physical response to a physical assault appropriate? Yes. Just keep it proportionate.

I have a theory, born of a limited experience, that some guys who grope girls on the tube, if not challenged, go on to do worse thing than groping girls on the tube....

TLH, when training as a nurse in London about 30 years ago, had the ghastly experience of someone whipping it out and jerking it off over her and a colleague on a late night tube. A few months later that same colleague, same tube, travelling solo, was followed off the tube and raped. She said it was the same guy. (Was it? Who knows. What really boils my **** is that he walked. And anecdotal evidence from the nurse's home was she wasn't the first or last.)

 

[Jody]

I was more thinking of the "is a physical response appropriate, or should the hypothetical victim say nothing and report the incident to the police?" question...
(Useful tip though, thank you... I think...)

What if you slap him and he goes on to assault someone else or worse. The police then have no knowledge of this or previous sexual assaults and you could have done something to stop further assaults.

I say slap him then report him!

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Good points well made. Thank you. My take on your arguments...

The driver may just be feeling guilty about what almost happened back there. People are pretty poor at accepting blame, but it is still possible that the driver is sitting at that set of lights reflecting on the incident. You come along, and whack off their mirror. I'd wager that any chance of the driver accepting blame for the incident has now evaporated.

I'm not seeking to blame them. Whether they accept this blame or not is irrelevant. They are objectively responsible.

The driver may not have realised what happened. You hope to give them a wake up call by destroying their wing mirror. Some drivers might wake up and assume that this was retribution for a failing on their part. I'd wager that what actually happens is the driver doesn't realise you've done it deliberately and ends up thinking that cyclists are a bunch of c***s who accidentally damage mirrors and then just ride off.

If the driver is so dull they don't realise what happened then God help everyone they encounter.

The drivers can be in no doubt that my actions were deliberate.

Drivers accidentally damage mirrors on other vehicles with a depressing frequency. and just drive off. do they think all other drivers are see you next tuesdays?

In any case, the driver now has to complete the rest of their journey without their wing mirror.

Which they weren't using anyway.

None of the above increase safety for fellow cyclists on the road.

t-i-c I disagree. No door mirror. Therefore they can't hit another cyclist with it. Therefore other cyclists safer and I should be their hero no?

Srsly do you expect all other cyclists to behave in ways that increase my/your safety. If so can you tell the majority of 'em to stop gutter hugging please.

Anyone who does this is simply venting their anger. And although I can accept that that might happen sometimes, I find it dispiriting that it's actually being encouraged, even lauded.

I also think that there is an interesting difference in the tone of this thread and the one where the cyclist admonishes a driver in London for encroaching on the ASL. In that other thread, the tone was very much against the cyclist. Why? Simply because of the outcome - fisticuffs.

I think that's a fairly likely outcome to a wing mirror smash as well, if the driver catches you.

A risk I'm prepared to take. In the event of a second assault by the same driver but with any 'weapon' they had better ensure they disable me with the first blow or else their life will get painful very fast. I'm a big unit, albeit an old one.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Other retaliations to being groped on the Tube are available - some women recommend shouting very loudly something along the lines of, 'GET YOUR HANDS OFF ME YOU F*CKING MORON, WHAT A CREEP.' Given the marvellous way in which this breaks the Tube Code of Silence, this can be more effective than violence by its sheer groper humiliation factor.

I'd like to see this deployed in combination with squeeze and twist. Just make sure the message gets across in a lasting way.

 

[Jody]

Let the police do their job? Don't make me laugh.

In the second case, last summer, I ended up with a wrecked bike and he got a police caution.

Which one is it? Surely you either advocate the use of proper channels and the law or you don't.

Anyway, thank you for your reply earlier in the thread. I appreciate that you are only encouraging discussion on the topic and gauging peoples opinion. I just cannot agree that taking the law into your own hands based on your interpretation of someone 'assaulting' you. For assault there has to be clear intent to do you harm. Not just getting too close and touching you or making a bad decision on when to overtake.

Taking a wing mirror off and scurrying away is not the answer. Why not man up, tap on the window and tell them what you think or where they have gone wrong.

 

[Andrew_P]

Not just getting too close and touching you.

Have you ever had a car or van "just touch you?!?"

 

[fossyant]

I know a while back GG you openly admitted you had some 'mojo' issues about getting back on the bike. There are better ways of dealing with idiots.

There is no need to take wing mirrors off. I never have. I've been driven at, threattened, but just note the reg and let the coppers have the details. It goes as intelligence against the vehicle. We all know that two idiots having an arguement get's nowhere ! Look at that video of the guy with the Audi posted a couple of weeks ago. Idiot driver, idiot cyclist, and idiot passenger = a mess ! I am prone to shouting loudly at folk who do stupid things, but what's the point of smacking a car - then the driver is going to be 'hissed' - you know what folk get like.

Remember, they are the one in 2 tonnes of steel. Can't get away smashing mirrors in areas where there are less cyclists, especially if you and or your bike stand out. What's to say they won't jump out and smack you one when you are waiting at lights 2-3 weeks later ? I see the same cars day in, day out, and certainly notice the ones which are 'less ordinary'.

In a civilised society, someone has to be the better 'person'. You've already got one idiot on the road, adding yourself as the other idiot can result in disasterous consequences.

Must be something about you southerners ?

 

[Jody]

Have you ever had a car or van "just touch you?!?"

Straight answer is no. I have come across some arses on the road but never been unlucky enough for one to hit me. If its more than a touch then you will probably be on your arse. In which case you wouldn't be catching them back up and smashing their wing mirror off.

 

[Jody]

they had better ensure they disable me with the first blow or else their life will get painful very fast. I'm a big unit, albeit an old one.

I'm chicken enough to pick my moment so that, for the most part, they aren't able to chase. (my only use for segregated cycle paths is as vehicle free escape routes from conflict, fnarr.).

Again, which one is it?