Taking off the door mirror...

[ianrauk]

I feel you are confusing irate = someone who has a beef with you after they have been witness or have been inconvenienced by your actions
or ignorant = someone who has acted in a way which has put you in danger through an act of thoughtlessness
or lastly belligerent = someone who without provocation has targeted you for 'special' treatment because they think they can do so and get away with it.

Can you clarify what you mean ?

It's simple. Someone has said we shouldn't confront a driver as it might make them more irate. Well I disagree.

 

[jonnysnorocket]

Have been following this thread with some interest, if you take the car & the bike out of the equation what are you left with............ an agressor & a victim? In some cases maybe. I know where I stand on this, I always have & will continue to stand my ground when my personal space or safety is threatened! I can count on one hand the number of confrontations I have had on or off a bike since the school playground. as for wingmirrors...... that's a nil for me, but a dirty great big dent in a door panel caused by a well aimed kick....

 

[GrumpyGregry]

My walking style needs a look to it seems.

Using the pedestrian crossing* by ours, on the way back from Waitrose on foot, wait for the beep beep beep start crossing and a 4x4 comes around the corner off the roundabout and just pulls onto the 'wrong' far side of the road to go past me whilst the light is still red.

Still speed limits and red lights are for plebs not wealthy beemer owners.

*built in a ridiculous position vis-a-vis the roundabout but they stuck it about 100m away from where they said they were putting it, outside the leisure centre entrance, at the planning stage.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

[QUOTE 2919210, member: 30090"]And immortalise Linf's answer to everyone, with respect to his style and method of posting which is borderline cockwomble trolling - no f***ing thank you.[/quote]
Don't dis da cockwombles.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Nice attempt from a newbie to get this thread back to the original subject - well done, and welcome. Ignore the oafish trolls, you'll soon realise who's who.

Who you callin' an oafish troll. A trollish oaf maybe....

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Hmmm, let's remove car and bike.

If someone passed me on foot in the street and slapped me on the arse, hard, or on the upper arm, or back of head when doing so was utterly avoidable, and further up the street there they were, standing in a queue for an atm or something that I needed to walk past to get to where I'm going...

should I put my hands in my pockets, head down eyes on the floor and walk by without saying a word? just in case I provoke a negative reaction.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

The only ignorant person on here is you. I couldn't give a toss what you do and if you get clobbered for carrying out vandalism then so be it.

Nope.

Your suggestion that I, or anyone else, should report getting 'clipped' by a vehicle to the police and "let them do their job" is ignorant of what the police would regard as their job in such circumstances and is thus laughable. It can only be based in zero experience or a huge amount of wishful thinking. Or both.

What precisely do you think the police would do? Even in a policing area like mine lucky enough to have Operation Crackdown in place here is what they say they do...

"The officers who administer Operation Crackdown will then research the information you provide and decide on the appropriate course of action. They will take into account:

• How serious was the incident?
• Has the vehicle has been reported before?
• Does the driver fall into a category considered to be at high risk of causing a collision?"

So if the officer decides being clipped by a car, whilst careless on behalf of the driver, isn't a serious incident, and most of them don't regard incidents involving cyclists "you weren't injured were you?" as serious, no further action. If it is the first time that vehicle has been reported, and good luck if you report the same vehicle twice as some look askance at that, drivers wouldn't target someone would they, no further action. And they are quite good at "you were riding in the middle of the lane sir what did you expect you were holding people up" and my fave "why aren't you wearing a helmet and hi-viz? Perhaps the driver couldn't see you" style ignorant victim blaming too. And there is no route of appeal or escalation. The officer decides no further action, that's it. (EDIT: re-reading some of my past correspondence with sussex safer roads partnership if the driver isn't a male aged up to their mid twenties, i.e. not in a high risk group no further action. So good luck with middle-aged female 4x4 drivers)

Our competition secretary was T-boned by a Smidsy whilst minding his own business on a group training ride. Several witnesses, ambulance and police called. Club members not independent enough as witnesses! No prosecution.

Part of my route, on the stretch where most conflict occurs, is in a 30mph zone with a radar controlled 30 sign. 80%, I've sat and watched and counted, 80% of peak hours drivers set that sign off. But the police and highways authority won't install a speed camera there. A good number, the vast majority, of drivers will pass me on that stretch in the face of oncoming traffic when I'm in primary or secondary or the gutter and doing 20+mph on a piece of road with double-whites, a blind bend hiding a petrol station exit and a 3 way mini-roundabout junction. Great fun when a queue of four or five try to go by, each following the other like a lemming each in the queue getting closer and closer to me and trying to squeeze past until the last one sometimes misjudges it and swerves into the space I'm in. A minute or two later I often pass them in the queue. Nobbers one and all. Do you think reporting them would make a difference?

Let the police do their job? Don't make me laugh.

 

[Jody]

Seen as someone reported or removed mine and GG's post. What is the purpose of this thread. Is it for validation of your behaviour? Is it to antagonise certain members? Do you feel what you did is right?

I just don't understand why you start a thread asking for peoples thoughts and then criticize or pick at people that don't share your view on damaging peoples cars.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Seen as someone reported or removed mine and GG's post.

Really? Well it wasn't me.

What is the purpose of this thread.

See various posts by me, as I started it, above; to discuss / debate the matter with other cyclists especially those whose viewpoint is markedly different to my own. But threads take on a life of their own once they get going...

Is it for validation of your behaviour?

Nope. It is for exploration of opinions on my behaviour.

Is it to antagonise certain members?

I cannot be responsible for how other folk choose to feel about my actions and opinions. If they feel antagonised that would be their bag to deal with. It would be an odd forum if we could not start threads in which others could not disagree with us. People I know somewhat, have ridden with, and whom I like and respect, have disagreed with me on this one in this thread. Others have agreed. People I don't know at all, have never ridden with, and whom I neither know nor as a consequence am able to respect as flesh and blood people have disagreed too. Some have preached and attempted facile psychoanalysis. I accept I lay myself open to this in posting.

Do you feel what you did is right?

Right? I'm afraid I'm one of those people who thinks that retributive justice has its place in situations where one is assaulted. Especially where the forces of law and order simply trivialise and ignore that assault. I regard being struck by a vehicle whilst cycling legally and carefully as an assault therefore I will respond towards my assailant in kind. So. Right? Depends, it is a subjective moral judgement. Justified? In my subjective opinion, certainly. But now I've found what I hope will be a better way.

I just don't understand why you start a thread asking for peoples thoughts and then criticize or pick at people that don't share your view on damaging peoples cars.

Because the purpose of the thread was/is to stimulate discussion and debate. To engage in a conversation with others, not merely to listen to what they have to say and just nod in assent or hypocritically in disagreement.
iirc I've not picked at people, feel free to correct me, but their arguments.

I started the thread having seen another cyclist locally take off a door mirror with her fist whilst I was sat, as a passenger, in a following car. The driver of which had very different opinions on the matter to me.

 

[fimm]

...
I started the thread having seen another cyclist locally take off a door mirror with her fist whilst I was sat, as a passenger in a following car. The driver of which had very different opinions on the matter to me.

Now that is interesting, as I've been contemplating adding my twopenn'orth to the thread to wonder if there might be a difference between men and women on this one. I've never been hit by a car, thankfully, so I don't know how I would react, though I have made "gestures" towards people who I feel have driven their cars unacceptably in my vicinity. I'm not sure if I'm strong enough to take a wing mirror off.
(For clarity, I'm female.)

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Now that is interesting, as I've been contemplating adding my twopenn'orth to the thread to wonder if there might be a difference between men and women on this one. I've never been hit by a car, thankfully, so I don't know how I would react, though I have made "gestures" towards people who I feel have driven their cars unacceptably in my vicinity. I'm not sure if I'm strong enough to take a wing mirror off.
(For clarity, I'm female.)

You are. It requires very little strength if the right technique is applied.
The wee lassie I saw (she is tiny, from Scotland and at Uni on the south coast) is an incredibly strong cyclist and we sometimes draft each other when her training rides coincide with my commutes. She rips my legs off for a few miles and then we go our separate ways. Not that I commute by bike much at this time of year, but she would have been out for two-three hours when I saw her.

 

[ComedyPilot]

Seems like this is quite a contentious issue.

I drive and have never yet caused a vulnerable road user/cyclist to fear for their safety. I have never blocked their way, nearside or offside filtering. My driving has never caused a cyclist to feel the need to bang on my car door/roof/window to alert me of their presence/displeasure. I have never passed a cyclist so close as to cause them anguish enough for them to chase me to the next set of traffic lights and then re-arrange the rearward visual aids on my car. I have never parked obstructing a cycle lane to walk 5 yards to a highly-important kebab restaurant. I have never overtaken a cyclist round a blind lefthand bend and had to cut in to avoid a collision with another car thereby squeezing the cyclist to the verge/kerb/hedge. I have never driven behind a cyclist (in my 'safe' tin box) blaring my horn at them to intimidate them into getting 'out of my way'. As a result they have never had cause to scream at my passenger window and cover it in spittle.

Bit of a pattern developing here, don't you think?

I think we have a number of cyclists that are sick of being treated as above (and in other ways) by 'some' car drivers that they are more than willing to dish a bit of 'punishment' out the other way. It doesn't take much research on the web/here to realise the police can't do anything without independent witnesses or good impartial vid cam footage in 'close call' incidents, and as such 'some' cyclists 'may' be taking a little of the law into their own hands.

I stated above, it's not my bag, and I wouldn't do it myself (I don't think), but given some of the close calls I've had, I can fully understand why some cyclists do it.

A cyclist riding down a 'non fault' row of cars kicking every wing mirror off?

Criminal damage - no contest and no justification.

A cyclist knocking a wing mirror of a car that just scared the living daylights out of them due to any number of ways?

Still criminal damage, but perhaps the victim 'may' learn to drive around vulnerable road users with a little more care in future?

As @GrumpyGregry has stated this topic is a hot one and is being debated. Like it or not, our country has fallen ransom to car ownership, and drivers have become almost possessed in their little 'tin safes' and anyone encroaching on their territory is seen as a threat. (Just YouTube road rage). It is absolutely shameful that it requires the most vulnerable of road users to challenge the behaviour of the thugs in their biscuit tins......

 

[Custom24]

I wouldn't knock a wing mirror off for the following reasons. Several posts in this thread have made reference to the fact that time is limited and with your adrenalin pumping, I'm guessing that you're not going to have a conversation with the driver before your retribution.

The driver may just be feeling guilty about what almost happened back there. People are pretty poor at accepting blame, but it is still possible that the driver is sitting at that set of lights reflecting on the incident. You come along, and whack off their mirror. I'd wager that any chance of the driver accepting blame for the incident has now evaporated.

The driver may not have realised what happened. You hope to give them a wake up call by destroying their wing mirror. Some drivers might wake up and assume that this was retribution for a failing on their part. I'd wager that what actually happens is the driver doesn't realise you've done it deliberately and ends up thinking that cyclists are a bunch of c***s who accidentally damage mirrors and then just ride off.

In any case, the driver now has to complete the rest of their journey without their wing mirror.

None of the above increase safety for fellow cyclists on the road.

Anyone who does this is simply venting their anger. And although I can accept that that might happen sometimes, I find it dispiriting that it's actually being encouraged, even lauded.

I also think that there is an interesting difference in the tone of this thread and the one where the cyclist admonishes a driver in London for encroaching on the ASL. In that other thread, the tone was very much against the cyclist. Why? Simply because of the outcome - fisticuffs.

I think that's a fairly likely outcome to a wing mirror smash as well, if the driver catches you.

 

[theclaud]

[QUOTE 2922959, member: 45"]I'm a chicken. I tapped on the window of an Audi once and the psycho driver chased me down the outside of a line of traffic. I was genuinely scared that I was going to be seriously hurt. I wouldn't knock a mirror off a car.[/quote]

That's just bad luck. they are usually scared sh1tless. Try it again.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

[QUOTE 2922959, member: 45"]I'm a chicken. I tapped on the window of an Audi once and the psycho driver chased me down the outside of a line of traffic. I was genuinely scared that I was going to be seriously hurt. I wouldn't knock a mirror off a car.[/quote]
0/5. No one has every chased me apres their mirror has gone awol. I'm chicken enough to pick my moment so that, for the most part, they aren't able to chase. (my only use for segregated cycle paths is as vehicle free escape routes from conflict, fnarr.)

I have had two 2 interactions with psycho types since 08. In neither case had I touched their car or spoken to them or made rude gestures. In both instances I'd simply shaken my head and done the 'more space please' signal after a 1" pass. Both stopped. Both reversed their vehicles AT me. In the second case, last summer, I ended up with a wrecked bike and he got a police caution.