Taking the flexitarian road?

[Arrowfoot]

If the environmental costs of large scale meat production are one of the drivers for those reducing their intake then that’s a good thing. It’s understandable but still sad to see the food industry pushing highly processed, highly packaged products so hard. On balance they may still be better than large animal derived products but much of the environmental and health gain can be lost, and the packaging cost remains high. You don’t need a chilled distribution chain for a sack of lentils, you do for fancy part-cooked spun protein sold in a plastic tray in a cardboard box.

I don’t want the perfect to be the enemy of the good, but the big money takeover of “plant based” seems like it may be a missed opportunity to effect real change.

Vegetarian cooking can be so quick and easy and cheap - everything goes with everything - and can really help those seeking to save money.

Definitely the environment is a factor. Not just the release of harmful methane into the atmosphere but the conversion of valuable forest and land to cultivate food for cattle and other livestock. We also fish the oceans extensively and convert that to fishmeal and again for the livestock industry.

It tugs at you when you read about it or watch documentaries. It actually horrifying. Here are some stunning figures. 25kg of feed and 15, 0000 litres of water to get 1 kg of beef. 72% of cereals cultivated in Australia goes to feed livestock and not humans.

 

[mudsticks]

Tell me about it. Future meat burger is £16 per kg, Beyond Burger is £25 per kg while good tasting ordinary beef burgers are around £4 per kg. Nearly 4 to 5 times more and the cheaper plant based stuff taste wise is not at all in the zone.

I remember after my personal Organic resolution gone bust 20 years ago within a week. I consoled myself that only the rich and wealthy can afford this. Back to my side of the tracks. Also noticed that these speciality stores are in affluent neighbourhoods in those days. .

Isn't it nuts that organically certified producers have to pay to be certified.

Whereas those using the subsidised products of the oil companies don't have to 'pay ' for polluting at all.

We have to pay real wages to real people


It's all back to front.

Still, the new Environment Land Management Scheme, coming in - once it's been designed is supposed to address some of this.

We'll see..

 

[mudsticks]

Definitely the environment is a factor. Not just the release of harmful methane into the atmosphere but the conversion of valuable forest and land to cultivate food for cattle and other livestock. We also fish the oceans extensively and convert that to fishmeal and again for the livestock industry.

It tugs at you when you read about it or watch documentaries. It actually horrifying. Here are some stunning figures. 25kg of feed and 15, 0000 litres of water to get 1 kg of beef. 72% of cereals cultivated in Australia goes to feed livestock and not humans.

Yes,

Animal agriculture done badly , feedlots, factory farming etc, all terrible for the environment.
But well managed grazing, actually sequesters carbon into deep swards builds soil, and then captures more carbon

As we like to say

It's the how, not the cow.

The methane from grazing herbivores is default

Herds of buffalo on the American plains , didn't kick start climate change

Ploughing up soils to grow arable crops to feed animals in sheds , carbon heavy stuff.

I also use bio char from tree loppings here to lock carbon into the soil, and provide more homes for carbon capturing soil life.

Pre inoculated with 'home produced' nitrogen.

 

[Arrowfoot]

All food we eat is plant based, ultimately isn't it


Cows n sheep n chickens etc in their proper environment are plant based too.

Well chickens eat bugs as well.

And pigs are opportunistic omnivores, which is why they're the traditional peasant animal converting all sorts of waste into edible meat.

Sadly feeding food waste isnt not allowed at the moment.

'Plant based' is just the new marketing term for vegan.

All respect to anyone who doesn't wish to eat meat or consume dairy.

It's a personal ethical choice, possibly healthier, if only cos you tend to eat more veg but it's not necessarily better for the environment.

I'm going to say it cos it's true...

But some of my best friends are vegan.

I'm not however, but I do eat a lot of vegan food cooked by other people.

I cook it for them.

But we all recognise that coconuts, almonds, avocados etc are not necessarily 'better for the environment' not when in this country anyhow.


things like lentils, chickpeas etc even though we don't grow them in the UK are probs still ok

They tend to be slow shipped.

Although it's questionable that we should be eating food from nations who already struggle to feed their populations.

We can't even grow nuts in this country to any commercial scale.
Largely because of squirrels and deer.

We probs need to eat the squirrels and deer.


I eat as locally and as seasonally as possible
And grass fed meat and dairy and organic where possible.

I probably grow 70% of our diet.

Most meals are home cooked from scratch, but there's quite a few competent adult cooks to share the catering load here.


That processed plant based foods, are better for the environment than processed meat products of industrialised animal agriculture, is probably the case.

If only in terms if animal welfare.
But probs in terms of pollution the packaging is about the same right?

I was a vegetarian for nearly fifteen years.

Since gone back to being a conscious omnivore.

Flexitarian locavore , whatever you like to call it.

It's mainly just being aware of choices, and consequences I guess.

Yes "plant based" term is new and refers specifically to processed food that does not contain meat. The key differentiator form normal veg is "processed". Yes on the account they are to replace meat.

Within plant based there is a need for further separation. Quorn, Linda McCartney's meat replacements products have been on the shelves since the 90s. But no attempt to emulate meat in taste or texture. Impossible meat and Beyond Meat are meant to replicate meat - taste and texture and bloody expensive.

One confession though - still consider Full English as sacred and steakhouses as temples. Just the environmental guilty consciousness has pushed me to cut it down. Still the flawed a character I am.

 

[Arrowfoot]

Isn't it nuts that organically certified producers have to pay to be certified.

Don't get me started on organic. After 20 years, it still irks me who expensive it is. Occasionally I would pop into these organic stores or watch customers on the organic super market aisle or picking an organic version. We talking high end Audi or a young person single but truly committed. Would not see a norma family near them. It is also them that demand certification.

You can be a totally organic farmer with organic produce but it goes to the ordinary shelf without certification. I get the reason but the cost is a serious issue.

 

[vickster]

Plant based.... sounds just as bad as meat based - like Maccy's chicken nuggets - might have been a chicken.

I eat veg, not processed veg and also keep processed meat to a minimum. Veggie sausages, sorry, but probably far worse for you than real sausages (not el cheapo ones)

If it's edible I'll eat it, although I draw the line at lots of fishy stuff - if it's a fish fine, but not something with legs etc.

Maybe but I don’t like meat any more . Frankly my diet contains rubbish too so a veggie sausage occasionally is going to make f-all difference to my health and well-being. (what’s so bad about something made of soya anyhow?)

 

[vickster]

Impossible meat and Beyond Meat are meant to replicate meat - taste and texture and bloody expensive.

 

[ClichéGuevara]

Yes "plant based" term is new and refers specifically to processed food that does not contain meat. The key differentiator form normal veg is "processed". Yes on the account they are to replace meat.

Within plant based there is a need for further separation. Quorn, Linda McCartney's meat replacements products have been on the shelves since the 90s. But no attempt to emulate meat in taste or texture. Impossible meat and Beyond Meat are meant to replicate meat - taste and texture and bloody expensive.

One confession though - still consider Full English as sacred and steakhouses as temples. Just the environmental guilty consciousness has pushed me to cut it down. Still the flawed a character I am.

I've developed a way of making my Vegi guests feel appreciated and included, after all, they go to the effort of making vegi stuff taste like meat when I call round theirs, so I make my meat stuff taste like veg for them when they come round our house. I'm thoughtful like that I am.

 

[Arrowfoot]

Though I share my fry-up challenge done some time ago. Same insane approach that I have with bikes to see what works.
Picked Quorn, Linda McCartney's ( old world plant based, not emulating meat) and Future Burger and Beyond Burger (new world and attempting to emulate meat including the colour of blood). Had to rob the emergency tin can on the top cupboard as the last 2 were expensive.

Put all 4 patties on the pan at the same time but kept to the cooking duration for each as in the instructions. Quorn and Linda were poor in taste but I liked Linda's texture. The texture was better than new fangled Future burger.

The surprise was Beyond Burger. It actually tasted good, texture excellent and juicy. Out of curiosity. I did a second fry up with the remaining Beyond Burger patty and picked up a Mac Quarter pounder as well as one of the more expensive signature burger. Threw out all the garnishes, sauces and cheese and did straight taste of the patties. Beyond Burger scored well across the board. Mac patties without garnishes and sauce was bland and dry. The patties were also much thinner, a Twiggy thin (rip off quantity wise). Now know the reason for the large dollop of mayo and or sauce on Macs. One thing though, the Macs were clearly beef and tasted beef. Beyond Burger did not come closer to the taste of beef but was a lot tastier.

But there is no way I can afford the price of these expensive mocked meat versions. So it is lentil, pulse, fried tofu, pasta, rice, etc .

 

[Arrowfoot]

I've developed a way of making my Vegi guests feel appreciated and included, after all, they go to the effort of making vegi stuff taste like meat when I call round theirs, so I make my meat stuff taste like veg for them when they come round our house. I'm thoughtful like that I am.

You are ahead. I am seriously bad here. I think I had bad luck here as the ones that I met are one down on the militancy ladder. I must make a fresh attempt. The compromise is inviting them to an Indian Restaurant and ordering a swathe of vege stuff.

 

[Arrowfoot]

Maybe but I don’t like meat any more .

You may have a point here. Until my forties, veg was a side dish and I am talking about roast potatoes and fried chips. Even before the environmental pangs, I began to be drawn to green stuff a lot more. I do enjoy some of these meals by themselves. The taste buds seems to be transforming here.

 

[mudsticks]

Yes "plant based" term is new and refers specifically to processed food that does not contain meat. The key differentiator form normal veg is "processed". Yes on the account they are to replace meat.

Within plant based there is a need for further separation. Quorn, Linda McCartney's meat replacements products have been on the shelves since the 90s. But no attempt to emulate meat in taste or texture. Impossible meat and Beyond Meat are meant to replicate meat - taste and texture and bloody expensive.

One confession though - still consider Full English as sacred and steakhouses as temples. Just the environmental guilty consciousness has pushed me to cut it down. Still the flawed a character I am.

Don't get me started on organic. After 20 years, it still irks me who expensive it is. Occasionally I would pop into these organic stores or watch customers on the organic super market aisle or picking an organic version. We talking high end Audi or a young person single but truly committed. Would not see a norma family near them. It is also them that demand certification.

You can be a totally organic farmer with organic produce but it goes to the ordinary shelf without certification. I get the reason but the cost is a serious issue.

Or you can be an organic farmer who doesn't deal with supermarkets
Who shortens the supply chain and sells direct, so she makes a living at it.

But that does demand a switched on local market, who are willing to bear a small amount of extra inconvenience, to get super fresh organic produce at prices below that of the supermarket .

It's the supermarket taking the profit, not the producer

Fwiw I did used to buy mainly organic for my young family.

And I never owned an Audi..

How could I ?

I was busy setting up an organic farm from scratch.

But I knew why I was doing that, and the difference it made

It would have been hypocritical to do otherwise.

The reason it's seen as 'expensive' is because it's actually closer to the 'true cost' of food

Conventionally produced food has been subsidised for decades by cheap oil, and oil based products..
Fertilisers pesticides etc, which have a cost to the environment

And 'cheap labour' too.

If you lok at the shelf cost of food relative to everything else it's fallen dramatically, compared to say the cost of housing, and everything else, over the last few decades.

Good food, food security, good food availability, good nutrition have become massively undervalued in our society.

There are signs of that changing a bit.

But the push back from the multiples, and the extractive middlemen, and 'fossil fuel' input sellers is hard .

Anyhow, this isn't getting the late season kale planted is it.??

And it's a beautiful sunny day..

 

[Chris S]

Here are some stunning figures. 25kg of feed and 15, 0000 litres of water to get 1 kg of beef.

But the water is quickly recycled though.

 

[matticus]

How much better are free-ranging animals like Cumbrian sheep in this respect?
(they probably get enough water without our help :P )

 

[HMS_Dave]

To place examples here. Birdseye Green Cuisine Meat Free burgers have 1.5g of salt per 100g. Birdseye Quarter Pounder Burgers have 0.73g salt per 100g.

Double the salt intake...

Beyond meat is better at 0.75g salt per burger but is almost £20 per kg! The Birdseye Quarter Pounders are £6.61 per kg...

Salt to me is important as too much spikes my blood pressure and i certainly couldn't afford all these meatless products. Sure, there are other ways to do it, but i can enjoy lean meat at a fraction of the cost and is less detrimental to my health. I have lost a significant amount of weight eating lean meat...

Think i'll stick to meat...