Turbo Trainers...Rejoice!!

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Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
RPE - ?
yea that was me falling off, - my chain kept coming off which when your going slowely up a hill on turbos is a bit fatal. - I didn't say the turbos didn't give leverage , I said I wondered if the instability outweighs the advantage (but not in those exact words) I can see if you got drop bars getting off the turbos makes sense as I think you would be in pritty much the same position , forward of your pedals , but have more control. so in that stu9 may well be right.
still have no idea how I broke my helmet.
 

T.M.H.N.E.T

Rainbows aren't just for world champions
Location
Northern Ireland
You are definitely special.
 

Hip Priest

Veteran
so would James watt. - but watt does a watt mean to you in real terms of Lsd - a mph , a pound pressure, a foot or a yard all mean things , a calorie ? a juel ? what the F do they mean - there just numbers.

as for thmet - you don't have a spedo on your turbo? and no I find if the weight is on your arms,the tip of the saddle is a fulcrum I can get more spin out my legs - If you don't agree all I can say is try it.

I don't have a speedo on my turbo, just a clock. I warm up for five minutes, then do intervals of 1 min hard effort followed by 2 mins gentle spinning, then I warm down for 5 minutes.

Speed on a turbo is always 0mph!
 

Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
I don't have a speedo on my turbo, just a clock. I warm up for five minutes, then do intervals of 1 min hard effort followed by 2 mins gentle spinning, then I warm down for 5 minutes.

Speed on a turbo is always 0mph!

only if you fix it to the front wheel.
get a cheep cycle computer, hook it up to the back wheel , it will give you speed,rpm,calories,time distance covered. (theotrically)
I would take the readings with a pinch of salt - but they are a good measure as to how your doing between each session. once you have found your level, then you can gauge your progress. - how else could I know I've upped my speed by 2-3mph otherwise.

something else that makes a real difference - you may have this already- get clipless pedals on the turbo. - it teaches the correct pedal action using the upstroke as well as the downstroke.
 

Rob3rt

Man or Moose!
Location
Manchester
In that postion without bars you have no leverage, your still resting your weight on your bum not your elbows. - you can,t dance on the pedals as lance puts it (mind you if take what he was on you might be able to)
giving it in watts would be a meaningless number - mph on a bike is far more relivant - and thats what I've acheived and I'm a knackered old fart.

WRONG, of all metrics able to be measured on the move, power is the single most useful metric.

Edit, whilst eating my dinner I will contemplate whether it is worth explaining why most/all of what you have said on this and other recent threads about this topic is either ill-informed or just plain wrong.
 

Rob3rt

Man or Moose!
Location
Manchester
Okay, re. aero bars.

Balance/Control/Handling: Whilst you should not have excessive weight on the aero bars, there will inevitably a forward shift of weight over the front end, this will negatively impact bike handling and control, leading to instability. TT bikes get around this by having a slacker head tube angle and/or more fork rake, so that the weight is still far enough behind the front wheel hub in order to handle in a stable way, particularly in a straight line and through moderate bends. The narrow grip, forward shift of weight and no access to the brakes makes cornering on the aero bars a challenge, for most corners you would get OFF of the aero bars and onto the base bar/bull horn for control and access to the brakes. When climbing, if you need to get out of the saddle, you also need to get off of the aero bars, reason, the bike will rock side to side, to output most power and maintain stability, you must be able to resist the rocking with your upper body, this requires a wider grip. Only on low gradient climbs, such as long drags of something like 2-5% would you typically ride on the aero bars, because you are able to remain seated for the duration of the climb and would be going fast enough to get a benefit from the aerodynamic position.

Power on aero bars: Riding on aero bars would in most cases will cause the hip angle to become more acute, limiting power output, not increasing it. BUT, the aerodynamic benefit often outweighs the drop in power output, provided you do not close the hip angle too much. Again, referring back to bikes made to be fitted with aero bars, they have a steeper seat tube angle, shorter top tube and shorter head tube in order to rotate the rider forward around the ankle joint, getting them low at the front without closing the hip angle. You will also notice TT riders pull themselves forward on the saddle, this opens up the hip angle. Generally, you are aiming to preserve as much capacity to output power whilst reducing frontal area, it is a compromise and in most cases some loss of power will be inevitable (unless you are a specialist who rides in this position most of the time thus being most well trained to operate within this hip angle envelope), but so long as the aerodynamic benefit outweighs it, it is game on!


Re. Training Metrics

Power is the ultimate metric because it actually tells you how hard you are working. It doesn't matter whether you are riding into a head wind, up hill, down hill, on the flat, it doesn't matter if it is hot or cold. If you are putting out 200W, you are putting out 200W, whether you are going 20mph on the flat or 12mph up a hill, you are doing the same amount of work. This makes it both the ultimate pacing tool and also the ultimate training tool (both in real time and in post-ride analysis, you can determine a remarkable amount of information from this metric). Speed is a piss poor metric to measure on most turbo trainers because the resistance curve varies day to day due to various reasons, such as differing temperatures, so your speed will vary day to day for the same power output. If you go faster one day, vs the previous day, you have very little idea if you have gained fitness, or if the turbo trainer resistance curve has changed due to it being warmer or colder.
 

Rob3rt

Man or Moose!
Location
Manchester
you don't say what music you listen to.
get the headphones on get your favourite ZZtop tracks and burn to that.

I actually hit stage 4 the other night - good beginning speed for pro racers - I'm out of the mild exercise area.
- F-me - !

WTF does that even mean?

- so how do you measure effort - on how sweaty you are at the end? - I use speed as my indicator as to how well - or bady - I have done in that season. - measuring heart rate or calories burned (both must go down the fitter you get so you would end up chasing your tail so to speak) I don't think is much of an indicator I prefere mph a a more tangible measure

I have never done TTing , I dare say all the TTers are laughing up thier lycra at me - I'm only saying what works for me on a turbo trainer for upping your speed. -

I have tried to watch 'Training' dvds - but find the music uninspiring and generally I have far better video in my head of runs I've done. - I think the real answer is better music.

This logic is outright mental. As you increase fitness, your HR for a given power output will likely go down, but that does not matter, if you are training using HR, you would be aiming for a given HR value (measured as a % of your MHR ot LTHR) so as you get fitter, nothing would change other than that for a certain HR value, you would be putting out more power.

They probably are, I had a bit of a laugh!

RPE - ?
yea that was me falling off, - my chain kept coming off which when your going slowely up a hill on turbos is a bit fatal. - I didn't say the turbos didn't give leverage , I said I wondered if the instability outweighs the advantage (but not in those exact words) I can see if you got drop bars getting off the turbos makes sense as I think you would be in pritty much the same position , forward of your pedals , but have more control. so in that stu9 may well be right.
still have no idea how I broke my helmet.

RPE = Rate of Percieved Exertion and there are several scales outlined in the literature. One of the most common is the Borg scale.
 

Rob3rt

Man or Moose!
Location
Manchester
I'm not training for racing (and have only a cheap trainer) but how do you increase your 60 minute power? Just going as hard as you can sustain for 60 mins?

There are lots of traditional methods for increasing FTP, the most common is probably the 2x20 session, basically, warm up, then ride at threshold for 20 minutes. Probably somewhere around the high 80's, maybe 90% or so in terms of MHR, you will feel your legs burning but it won't be the sort of excessive burning like in an all out sprint or anaerobic effort, more like a tightening feeling, at least that is how I would describe it, you should be able to push through and go for 20 minutes, but it will require considerable mental effort and focus. After the 20 minute interval take a rest for 10-15 mins by riding at an aerobic/endurance intensity then go again for another 20 minutes at threshold. Then cool down. You should be able to complete both intervals at the same intensity (approx 3-5% variance in intensity is okay, hard to measure without a PM tbh best to use your judgement and basically, if you are not able to go hard enough in the second interval, just stop and save it for another day, think why you couldn't complete, went to hard in the 1st interval? Try being a bit more reserved next time. Or reduce the duration of each interval and build up to 20 mins).

Other workouts would be tempo efforts riding at about 85% MHR for a prolonged period of time, at least an hour, up to 2 if you can, again this requires considerable mental effort as it will become boring, uncomfortable and increasingly difficult.

Another is the sweet spot session, this is called the sweet spot because it has the required intensity to increase lactate threshold but is moderate enough to recover quickly in order to repeat it, thus having the greatest return for the time spent. You can do these as a 2x20 session riding at high tempo/low threshold rather than a full threshold intensity, I prefer to just ride for 40 minutes in one chunk and call it a day.

You could ride for 60 mins as hard as you can if you want, but most people won't want to, it would be mentally very taxing.

I am not a training expert, just outlining some training sessions I have found in different literature and use regularly. I would vouch for their effectiveness based on my data.
 

Hip Priest

Veteran
Not got a heart rate monitor, but will look into getting one. I know I've got a resting heart rate of 40bpm, which is supposedly extremely low, but is down to genes rather than fitness I expect!
 

Rob3rt

Man or Moose!
Location
Manchester
You don't need one, if you are a good judge of your own effort, additional tools are handy, but not essential. That said anything that removes or reduces the opportunity to lie to yourself about how hard you are working is a good thing though IMO.
 

Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
RPE - :laugh: I love it - I think I worked really hard last night much harder than the night before - so I must be making progress. - or the exact opposite , I worked really hard because my fitness was down. - so it felt harder.

of course I can use a derivative of RPE - GMPOinW - Guess my power output - in watts Imust havee been doing at least 200watts of power.

I cannot see anything more pointless than siting on a turbo trainer for half an hour pedalling lick F and having no measure of progress or effort. - The more knackered you become what appears to be equal effort is actually going slower.
I find a measure incentives me to work harder, I expect to do 20k in 30minutes , if after 15minutes I,m only at 8k I've got some work to do (actually thats about right as the first 10 minutes I'm just warming up so slower)

I would say a turbo trainer is a prettyneutrall ride in that it has very few external variables between each ride, no wind ect.
so if you did 17mph today for half hour you can expect to do it tomorrow , the variable is you.

- Black -
 
I usually try to use the same setup on my turbo each time. Some people may find my methods useful so I'll post them here.

What you need : A bike, a turbo and a rear wheel mounted speedo. A cadence sensor would be useful too. I use a Cateye Strada Cadence computer.
A stopwatch will be useful for setup. Pen and Paper.

Why calibrate your turbo ? So you have a referrence. If you don't do this you won't know where you are and will become demotivated later. When you improve you need to know that you have improved from a change in your body not your equipment.

How I calibrate a turbo.

Setup : Do this each time you get on your bike and turbo
1) Mount your bike on your turbo so the back wheel spins free.
2) Blow up the tyre to a pressure you are going to use in each session. I use 100 psi, if it is too hard the tyre may slip. If it is too soft it can slip and may get hot. Blow it up before introducing the roller !
3) Make sure the brakes do not touch the rim.
4) Set up the load the same way each time. See below for how to do this.


Introduce the load roller to the bike tyre so that it just touches, spin the wheel and you will see it drag as the roller is introduced. If the wheel is excentric it will touch then miss, get it trued up. Now add load to the wheel by screwing the load roller up to the tyre. Try one turn and try a test with that. More turns = more load.
If it is a mag turbo set it roughly in the middle of whatever range and start off with that.
Get on the bike and pedal. The back wheel may slip a bit as you start off but keep pedalling and watch and listen for slip as you pick up speed.
If it slips when you are at a constant rate you may need to have the wheel trued or increase the pressure of the roller on the tyre.
Pedal the bike to a speed to you can hold steady for a couple of seconds. I use 30mph. Start the watch and stop pedalling. Watch the back wheel come to rest. Stop the watch and write down the time it took for the wheel to come to rest.
Repeat this another 3 times and record the average time it takes to stop. With the load setup (turns on screw or mag setting) this is your reference so you can repeat the same setup time after time.

You can adjust the load on the rear roller to increase or decrease this stopping time. I have mine set to about 10 to 11 seconds to come to rest. This means my 20 min TT on the turbo is close to my 12 mile TT average speed.

Check this periodically to see if anything has changed. I do it every time, it takes about 20 seconds to and I do it as part of my warm up. You can use this method at the end of your session too to see whether the turbo has got harder or easier with time and heat.
My fluid trainer gets harder and the time a wheel comes to rest comes down at the end of a session. It is not what I expected.
Note this method is not entirely fool proof as the inertial of the wheel will be different for different wheel types and weights, the same with tyres.

On completing this setup you have an instrument that can be used to prove your performance has improved.
This is setup to measure your RELATIVE performance. The speed on the turbo is not the same as the speed on the road. However with a bit of practice you can adjust the load so that they are similar.
 

Rob3rt

Man or Moose!
Location
Manchester
RPE - :laugh: I love it - I think I worked really hard last night much harder than the night before - so I must be making progress. - or the exact opposite , I worked really hard because my fitness was down. - so it felt harder.

of course I can use a derivative of RPE - GMPOinW - Guess my power output - in watts Imust havee been doing at least 200watts of power.

I cannot see anything more pointless than siting on a turbo trainer for half an hour pedalling lick F and having no measure of progress or effort. - The more knackered you become what appears to be equal effort is actually going slower.
I find a measure incentives me to work harder, I expect to do 20k in 30minutes , if after 15minutes I,m only at 8k I've got some work to do (actually thats about right as the first 10 minutes I'm just warming up so slower)

I would say a turbo trainer is a prettyneutrall ride in that it has very few external variables between each ride, no wind ect.
so if you did 17mph today for half hour you can expect to do it tomorrow , the variable is you.

- Black -

Did I waste my time explaining to you why this is not the case?
 

Licramite

Über Member
Location
wiltshire
No - I just don't agree with you.
Turbo has got to have the least number of variables as its a controlled environment, no wind resistance , no road variables and if you set your bike up as Arsen does your in damn near scientific testing conditions.
Watts of power ? - isn't measured on a cycle computer (though I dare say you could find an obscure one that does). Admittedly on a turbo it doesn't matter which parameter your going to measure yourself against, - watts produced, mph - its only an indicator of performance. -
The aerobars thing is for a different thread, (not that I,m disagreeing with what you said) but maybe for turboing they should be looked at as under - look at your riding position , are you in the best posture for performance.
I find they help by putting me in a very attack position and forcing me to work harder.
 
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