Update on NV55PVL

[BentMikey]

Offence of Harassment - Section 2
The elements of the section 2 offences are:

• a course of conduct;
• which amounts to harassment of another;
• which the defendant knows, or ought to know amounts to harassment of another.

The defendant ought to know if his course of conduct amounts to harassment if a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think the course of conduct amounted to harassment of the other.

Section 7 defines a course of conduct as involving conduct on at least two occasions. Harassment is not defined, but includes causing alarm or distress, and conduct is defined as including speech.
Putting people in fear of violence: Section 4
The elements of the section 4 offence are:

• a course of conduct
• which causes another to fear that violence will be used against him
• which the defendant knows or ought to know will cause another to fear that violence will be used against him.

The defendant ought to know that his course of conduct will cause another to fear that violence will be used against them if a reasonable person in possession of the same information would think that the course of conduct would cause the other so to fear on that occasion.

Thanks for confirming what I thought. I think there's no chance this is harrassment then, going by Dan's posts on this topic.

 

[CopperCyclist]

That doesn't seem acceptable to me. I'd pm Drago/CopperCyclist/Cubist and ask them for advice, but I think I'd want to make a complaint about that police officer's behaviour and training.

I don't know what you did exactly, but a simple report to employer and police surely can't be harrassment? His comments about riding in the middle of the road and videoing and uploading to YouTube are clearly wrong and ignorant.

He has done, I've given it. Haven't read the last five pages of this post prior to posting this, but the short version in my opinion is... officer knows nothing about cycling, and it's all hot air. He's had a complaint from Dan, a counter complaint from the driver, has decided the whole thing is a waste of his time, told them both off and closed the log as 'No offences, advice given'.

If I was Dan I wouldn't be happy, however theres so little likely to be gained from anything further I'd just Keep Calm and Carry On.

 

[PaulSB]

Not sure why I waded through all this. I ride my bike, never been abused by a driver, never had trouble with the police and, interestingly, never thought about wearing a camera.

I'm sure there's a lesson in that.

 

[CopperCyclist]

Thanks for confirming what I thought. I think there's no chance this is harrassment then, going by Dan's posts on this topic.

Ok caught up now. There are two types of harassment, Section 2 and Section 4. Section 4 is with a fear of violence, Section 2 is without. Specific intent as such isn't necessary, you just have to do two more more courses of conduct which you know or OUGHT to know" could cause the other person to be harassed.

Dans clearly isn't Section 4, but is it Section 2? For what it's worth, my opinion is no, but I can see how the officer MIGHT try to argue it was...

Filming someone in a public place - not illegal. Putting them on YouTube highlighting them as a bad driver - not illegal. However, PERHAPS putting them on YouTube is a course of conduct that you OUGHT to know could cause them to feel harassed...

The reporting to police is absolutely, 100 percent NOT a course of conduct for obvious reasons.
The reporting to the business.... hmm... it's arguable? It'll make them feel harassed after all, and you OUGHT to know that.

As I said, the above views aren't mine, but I'm trying to play Devils Advocate to see where he could be coming from. My conclusion is that I can sort of see it... however the truth of the matter is that it's just not a case that's ever, ever going o go anywhere. There may be an argument, but it's so weak it's just not true.


Dan has NOT been given any formal police caution. You have to formally admit the offence for this, and have that recorded in a PACE compliant manner (police interview, written and signed transcript) and it simply hasn't happened. Officer is using scare tactics and finding a frightening way of saying 'Right, I've told him off, I've told you off, now bugger off as I can't be bothered with any more of this'.

 

[Tynan]

I've skimmed this thread

People on a cycle forum are telling someone reporting the use of a mobile phone in a car that they're being silly or in someway a wrong 'un?

I for one have been abused by drivers, punched by one, have had interaction with the police, and have at one time worn a camera

But I ride in London and you it seems in Lancashire

I'm sure there's a lesson in that

 

[Boris Bajic]

Not sure why I waded through all this. I ride my bike, never been abused by a driver, never had trouble with the police and, interestingly, never thought about wearing a camera.

I'm sure there's a lesson in that.

This is pretty much where I am. Camera? Schmamera!

In my limited dealings with the Police, I have always found them polite, respectful and professional. That's mostly in London and the Three Counties.

This includes being nabbed riding a full-size motorcycle at 16 and getting an IN10 and a BA10 (before points were invented). It also includes several speeding stops, a few break-ins where I was the victim and some horrid scene-of-accident stuff while I held hands as patients either slipped away or didn't after a 999 call.

If I could put two or more 'likes' on the above post, I would.

Live to Ride, Ride to Ongar, as I never say.

 

[glenn forger]

And them murders you done.

 

[gaz]

Not sure why I waded through all this. I ride my bike, never been abused by a driver, never had trouble with the police and, interestingly, never thought about wearing a camera.

I'm sure there's a lesson in that.

 

[Crankarm]

Ok caught up now. There are two types of harassment, Section 2 and Section 4. Section 4 is with a fear of violence, Section 2 is without. Specific intent as such isn't necessary, you just have to do two more more courses of conduct which you know or OUGHT to know" could cause the other person to be harassed.

Dans clearly isn't Section 4, but is it Section 2? For what it's worth, my opinion is no, but I can see how the officer MIGHT try to argue it was...

Filming someone in a public place - not illegal. Putting them on YouTube highlighting them as a bad driver - not illegal. However, PERHAPS putting them on YouTube is a course of conduct that you OUGHT to know could cause them to feel harassed...

The reporting to police is absolutely, 100 percent NOT a course of conduct for obvious reasons.
The reporting to the business.... hmm... it's arguable? It'll make them feel harassed after all, and you OUGHT to know that.

As I said, the above views aren't mine, but I'm trying to play Devils Advocate to see where he could be coming from. My conclusion is that I can sort of see it... however the truth of the matter is that it's just not a case that's ever, ever going o go anywhere. There may be an argument, but it's so weak it's just not true.


Dan has NOT been given any formal police caution. You have to formally admit the offence for this, and have that recorded in a PACE compliant manner (police interview, written and signed transcript) and it simply hasn't happened. Officer is using scare tactics and finding a frightening way of saying 'Right, I've told him off, I've told you off, now bugger off as I can't be bothered with any more of this'.

Ehhh? This episode of indifference to criminal activity displayed by the police and to matters of road safety which has been reported to them is disgraceful. Dan was public spirited enough to report some one who was committing an offence by using their mobile phone whilst driving their vehicle which has serious implications for road safety. He recorded it on camera which is even better. He is the 'good citizen'. Period. He has NOT committed any offence of harassment nor filmed illegally. The officer who has suggested this to him or that he could be arrested is an arse. The officer should be investigated for abusing his position by bullying a witness which is if I am correct misconduct in public office or better still attempting to pervert the course of justice. If any one has been harassed it is Dan by this vindictive bullying copper. What Dan should do now is make a complaint to the Chief Constable of the officer's faliure to properly investigate this matter, his dereliction of duty and bringing the police service into disrepute by being a lazy, ignorant and arrogant ***! At the very least Dan should have been thanked for reporting the matter but then the police aren't hot on civility or common courtesy. Some are no better than thugs and crims in unforms they are part of the problem not the solution.

If the Chief Contstable does nothing then make a complaint to the IPCC.

 

[CopperCyclist]

Ehhh? This episode of indifference to criminal activity displayed by the police and to matters of road safety which has been reported to them is disgraceful. Dan was public spirited enough to report some one who was committing an offence by using their mobile phone whilst driving their vehicle which has serious implications for road safety. He recorded it on camera which is even better. He is the 'good citizen'. Period. He has NOT committed any offence of harassment nor filmed illegally. The officer who has suggested this to him or that he could be arrested is an arse. The officer should be investigated for abusing his position by bullying a witness which is if I am correct misconduct in public office or better still attempting to pervert the course of justice. If any one has been harassed it is Dan by this vindictive bullying copper. What Dan should do now is make a complaint to the Chief Constable of the officer's faliure to properly investigate this matter, his dereliction of duty and bringing the police service into disrepute by being a lazy, ignorant and arrogant ***! At the very least Dan should have been thanked for reporting the matter but then the police aren't hot on civility or common courtesy. Some are no better than thugs and crims in unforms they are part of the problem not the solution.

If the Chief Contstable does nothing then make a complaint to the IPCC.

I disagree with not one word you've said, and should Dan decide to go this route I wish him every luck.

:edit: (tired, hit complete too soon) I only suggest to move on as I doubt very much a complaint would go anywhere, and I wouldn't like to push the officer into the corner where he has to argue it is harassment and ends up having to crime and 'investigate' Dan to write it off. In the end I have no doubt it'd go nowhere, as its rubbish - but is it worth the hassle to Dan? If it is, then do it!

I'd love to be proved wrong though. Perhaps even an approach highlighting your point that civility or common courtesy wouldn't have gone amiss could work. Best of luck whatever you decide.

 

[Pale Rider]

I reported a driver using a mobile phone to the same force as Dan a few years ago.

I got through to a road policing unit inspector and the conversation went something like:

"Hello, this is a non-urgent matter, but I've just seen something on the road which I'd like to run past you."

"Go on."

"A van driver was using his phone on the A1 near the Coal House roundabout at Gateshead.
"I wouldn't normally report that, but he also had a clipboard on the steering wheel and was writing on it with his other hand.
"Looked like he was steering with his elbows."

The inspector asked for a few more details and then sent two coppers to my house to take a statement.

I never heard any more after that, although they told me the van was registered to a company in Yorkshire and they would, at the very least, be having a word.

A better result than Dan's, partly because of the way I approached it, but also I think because the circumstances of the offence were more serious.

Users of the road - the stretch past the Angel of the North - will know there are lots of accidents there.

 

[Cycling Dan]

Ehhh? This episode of indifference to criminal activity displayed by the police and to matters of road safety which has been reported to them is disgraceful. Dan was public spirited enough to report some one who was committing an offence by using their mobile phone whilst driving their vehicle which has serious implications for road safety. He recorded it on camera which is even better. He is the 'good citizen'. Period. He has NOT committed any offence of harassment nor filmed illegally. The officer who has suggested this to him or that he could be arrested is an arse. The officer should be investigated for abusing his position by bullying a witness which is if I am correct misconduct in public office or better still attempting to pervert the course of justice. If any one has been harassed it is Dan by this vindictive bullying copper. What Dan should do now is make a complaint to the Chief Constable of the officer's faliure to properly investigate this matter, his dereliction of duty and bringing the police service into disrepute by being a lazy, ignorant and arrogant ***! At the very least Dan should have been thanked for reporting the matter but then the police aren't hot on civility or common courtesy. Some are no better than thugs and crims in unforms they are part of the problem not the solution.

If the Chief Contstable does nothing then make a complaint to the IPCC.

Im happy with the end result on the drivers part, everything else certainly not. As advised by Newcastle cycling campaign as i kept them in the loop, if this did become about the officer they would close ranks very quick and little would come of it= wasted time.
Im just going to take the slap across the face. I have wasted enough time of my own and the officer wasted his own time himself.
I have better things to do than chase up some idiot in a uniform.
However has it affected what i do and say in the future regarding the police.... certainly.

 

[Cyclopathic]

I often see people phoning, texting, even eating a bag of chips and while it does irk me somewhat I wouldn't report it to the police. I might, if there were a dedicated phone line specifically for reporting motoring offences, consider making a call or possibly if a copper happened to be right there point it out to them but I would consider making a special trip or call a waste of my time and the police's. I'd have to be at the police station at least once a day and it would not be practical.
I suppose it might be an idea to set up a national database that at least logged all reports made by the public about drivers so that if it reached a certain number they were targeted for a good talking to about the standard of their driving but that would cost a lot of money and I can't see it happening.
I agree with a point made previously that if one feels very strongly about this then it might be better to make the report to the company on the side of the van. This of course is not much use for private vehicles or for one man companies who are the company as it were. Again this is not without pitfalls and I would not want to be responsible for losing a person their job in these harsh times. They have probably got a family who don't deserve to suffer.
What I tend to do if I feel particularly aggrieved by a phone user is just sort of look at them and the phone and give a mildly negative gesture like a shake of the head or a roll of the eyes. It may not get much of a response but it may well just alert them to the fact that some people (albeit a cyclist) lokk upon their behaviour disfavorably. Let me tell you, you don't want to be on the receiving end of one of my "looks" I've been told it can be very disconcerting...Or was it amusing.

 

[The Horse's Mouth]

Driving in London everyday I would be calling the police everyday if i was going to report everyone for using mobile phones whilst driving. Just not worth the hassle.

 

[ianrauk]

I've skimmed this thread

People on a cycle forum are telling someone reporting the use of a mobile phone in a car that they're being silly or in someway a wrong 'un?

I for one have been abused by drivers, punched by one, have had interaction with the police, and have at one time worn a camera

But I ride in London and you it seems in Lancashire

I'm sure there's a lesson in that

And it's not as if you're a slightly built bloke is it?